Self bat

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between ending a dribble and committing an illegal act during a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally ended his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

Correct.

It is not illegal if he is dribbling, bats the ball, goes around the opponent and catches the ball before it hits the floor.

It would only be illegal if it was the first dribble and he never allowed the ball to hit the floor.

Legal play.

[Old School]

What has happen here is a matter of you outsmarting yourself. You are hung up on the words, you have become too technical. There is another aspect of officiating bb you will not find in the rulebook. It's called the intent and purpose of the rule. The referee has the authority to make a ruling on points not specifically covered in the rules. It would be nice to be able to take every given situation that can happen in a game and relate it to wording in the book. However, that is not reality. For those that needs to be able to see this wording, looking for the next closes thing in the book doesn't make your point right, which may not be anywhere close to what actually happened. You then try to use this wording to confuse the issue. I think we all need to take a step back and think a minute about the intent and purpose of the rule. This is where you will find your answer.

And that answer is, you can not past the ball to yourself. I hear someone say a pass must be between teammates. Well this clever player, outsmarted you. He passed the ball to an invisable teammate, then went and recovered it himself, which was his intention all along. Quit saying he batted the ball, because this is not true. He did not bat the ball anywhere. He passed the ball to himself, a pass, he then went over there and caught it and shot. Illegal in all basketball associations, NBA, NCAA, and NFHS. You can not throw an alley-oop to yourself, unless it's at the slam-dunk contest.

Since the player went trick-a-dick, I'm gonna go trick-a-dick and tell the player, next time you make that move, please be sure and bring your suitcase because that was the nicest traveling move I've seen all year. If you want to say it's an illegal dribble, I will not argue that because the rulebook most closely matches that scenario. However, the rulebook also says a pass must be between teammates, so in the absence of another teammate to secure the ball before it hits the floor, we now have a violation of that rule or a turnover. And last, allowing a player to pass the ball to himself is too big of an advantage to the offensive player and not the intent and purpose of the rule.

Case closed.....

[Jimgolf]

Sorry, I didn't see page 2 before posting. I'll catch up.

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

Jurrassic, I see your point. There is no language in the definition of an illegal dribble that illustrates this.

"9-SECTION 5 ILLEGAL DRIBBLE
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.
ART. 2 . . . A bat by an opponent.
ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player."

However, this may be self-evident to the rulebook writers, but not to all: if it's not a legal dribble, it must be an illegal dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I can't believe that anybody would say that it's ok to throw the ball into the air, run 6 steps (or 3/4 of the court, for all that) and catch the ball.

I agree.

What's that got to with what we're discussing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP??

The case play refers to the start of a dribble. The player did not start the dribble legally as per rule 4-15-1. Iow, a "dribble" per se never actually happened. You gotta hit the floor to meet the definition of a "dribble". In the OP, the play being discussed happened during a legal dribble.

Apples and poi.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

However, this may be self-evident to the rulebook writers, but not to all: if it's not a legal dribble, it must be an illegal dribble.

Correct. What occurs in case book play 4.15.4SitE(b) does not meet the definition of the start of a legal dribble, as per rule 4-15-1. The ball never hit the floor, so the dribble never started legally.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The case play refers to the start of a dribble. The player did not start the dribble legally as per rule 4-15-1. Iow, a "dribble" per se never actually happened. You gotta hit the floor to meet the definition of a "dribble". In the OP, the play being discussed happened during a legal dribble.

Apples and poi.

Ok!!!!!! Grasshopper finally gets it, JR. And it only took you about 3 times to tell me.. LOL Thanks.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Correct. What occurs in case book play 4.15.4SitE(b) does not meet the definition of the start of a legal dribble, as per rule 4-15-1. The ball never hit the floor, so the dribble never started legally.

So, I noticed you have studiously avoided answering my questions.

Hmmm...?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, I noticed you have studiously avoided answering my questions.

You yelled at me and scared me......

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You yelled at me and scared me......

There...there...it'll be alright...

Geeze, you're more sensitive than Alec Baldwin's kid...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

There...there...it'll be alright...

Geeze, you're more sensitive than Alec Baldwin's kid...

Mommy, make the mean man leave me alone.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mommy, make the mean man leave me alone.

Just throw another big mac in his food bowl and he'll leave you alone

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Just throw another big mac in his food bowl and he'll leave you alone

You heard that too, eh?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Just throw another big mac in his food bowl and he'll leave you alone

Fries, too?

If I'm gonna get a boatload of calories, I might as well go all the way. This way, when I'm in my food-induced nap, you can sneak away unscathed.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You heard that too, eh?

Saw it on Entertainment Tonight