Self bat

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between ending a dribble and committing an illegal act during a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally ended his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

The point was that in rule 9, the only violation was for starting another dribble after the first had ended. In 4-15-4, touching the ball a second time before it hits the floor is not one of the ways a dribble ends, BUT 4.15.4 tells us that this indeed is a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The point was that in rule 9, the only violation was for starting another dribble after the first had ended. In 4-15-4, touching the ball a second time before it hits the floor is not one of the ways a dribble ends, BUT 4.15.4 tells us that this indeed is a violation.

Yup, and grabbing the ball is one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and ending a dribble is not a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Saw it on Entertainment Tonight

Not on Silly Pet Tricks?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and grabbing the ball is one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and ending a dribble is not a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

I'm going back to chew on my big mac now.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Fries, too?

If I'm gonna get a boatload of calories, I might as well go all the way. This way, when I'm in my food-induced nap, you can sneak away unscathed.

Not you silly. I meant the fat child abuser



Geeze, some people are so sensitive...

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

What has happen here is a matter of you outsmarting yourself. You are hung up on the words, you have become too technical. There is another aspect of officiating bb you will not find in the rulebook. It's called the intent and purpose of the rule. The referee has the authority to make a ruling on points not specifically covered in the rules. It would be nice to be able to take every given situation that can happen in a game and relate it to wording in the book. However, that is not reality. For those that needs to be able to see this wording, looking for the next closes thing in the book doesn't make your point right, which may not be anywhere close to what actually happened. You then try to use this wording to confuse the issue. I think we all need to take a step back and think a minute about the intent and purpose of the rule. This is where you will find your answer.

And that answer is, you can not past the ball to yourself. I hear someone say a pass must be between teammates. Well this clever player, outsmarted you. He passed the ball to an invisable teammate, then went and recovered it himself, which was his intention all along. Quit saying he batted the ball, because this is not true. He did not bat the ball anywhere. He passed the ball to himself, a pass, he then went over there and caught it and shot. Illegal in all basketball associations, NBA, NCAA, and NFHS. You can not throw an alley-oop to yourself, unless it's at the slam-dunk contest.

Since the player went trick-a-dick, I'm gonna go trick-a-dick and tell the player, next time you make that move, please be sure and bring your suitcase because that was the nicest traveling move I've seen all year. If you want to say it's an illegal dribble, I will not argue that because the rulebook most closely matches that scenario. However, the rulebook also says a pass must be between teammates, so in the absence of another teammate to secure the ball before it hits the floor, we now have a violation of that rule or a turnover. And last, allowing a player to pass the ball to himself is too big of an advantage to the offensive player and not the intent and purpose of the rule.

Case closed.....

The point is, this IS covered in the rules.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

Now I think I get it. Since the player in the OP didn't continue the dribble, this is not "during a dribble" but is the end of the dribble. Since the player shot the ball there is no violation.

Does the fact that the player did not return to the ground have any bearing on this call? Or would it still be a no call? BTW, I'd wager if this situation was on a test, most would get it wrong.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

It isn't.

But, is the wording in 4-15-2 saying the touch after the bat and before the ball hits the ground is simply "ending the legal dribble", or is it not permitted, and therefore a violation?

It's true it is not listed as a specific violation in Rule 9, but the second touch after a bat into the air is also not listed as a specific way to end the dribble, in 4-15-4. In just about any real-world play, doesn't the dribble end after the ball has bounced?

Let's say A1 is standing in place, dribbling with their right hand. A1 then starts to push the ball towards the floor towards their left side, as if to start a drive to the left. After the ball leaves their right hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 bats the ball with their left hand to push it back towards the right. Is this a legal play? Or, in a Nevada-type play, () how many times can they bat it back and forth between their hands before it hits the ground? The batting doesn't meet meet any of the requirements of ending a dribble in 4-15-4.

That's why I believe they put in the wording of 4-15-2, to say once the ball has been batted/pushed to the floor, (or even up into the air), it must be permitted to hit the floor before the next touch.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It isn't.

But, is the wording in 4-15-2 saying the touch after the bat and before the ball hits the ground is simply "ending the legal dribble", or is it not permitted, and therefore a violation?

It's true it is not listed as a specific violation in Rule 9, but the second touch after a bat into the air is also not listed as a specific way to end the dribble, in 4-15-4. In just about any real-world play, doesn't the dribble end after the ball has bounced?

Let's say A1 is standing in place, dribbling with their right hand. A1 then starts to push the ball towards the floor towards their left side, as if to start a drive to the left. After the ball leaves their right hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 bats the ball with their left hand to push it back towards the right. Is this a legal play? Or, in a Nevada-type play, () how many times can they bat it back and forth between their hands before it hits the ground? The batting doesn't meet meet any of the requirements of ending a dribble in 4-15-4.

That's why I believe they put in the wording of 4-15-2, to say once the ball has been batted/pushed to the floor, (or even up into the air), it must be permitted to hit the floor before the next touch.

The ball can't be batted into the air and then touched by the hand again before hit hits the floor. In this case, the ball never hit the floor again, as the dribble ended.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The ball can't be batted into the air and then touched by the hand again before hit hits the floor. In this case, the ball never hit the floor again, as the dribble ended.

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot was the touch after the bat.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot was the touch after the bat.

And if he had continued to dribble after touching the batted ball again before it hit the floor, then we would have a violation...but he didn't, so we don't...but you're right - I think you are getting closer.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And if he had continued to dribble after touching the batted ball again before it hit the floor, then we would have a violation....

Well, to quote an old, esteemed member: "Rules reference, please?"
Iow, where does it say anything about continuing to dribble after the touch for there to be a violation?

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...but you're right

Now we're getting closer.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot was the touch after the bat.

Batting the ball, imo, means tipping it away or swinging at it. It's entirely possible that the code does not describe this particular play, which I find amazing in this day and age of the game.

Somebody needs to define the word bat in the Federation code? To me, BAT does not mean PASS! One poster has already stated the reason why this bat restriction was put in the code in the first place. It was for players like Wilt Chamberlain who would tip the ball all the way down the court from one end to the other and never dribble it, thus dunking the ball in the end to score. Too big of an advantage to the offensive team with a player bigger than everyone else. Balance of fair play has to be realized here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And if he had continued to dribble after touching the batted ball again before it hit the floor, then we would have a violation...but he didn't, so we don't.

Yup. Look at 4-15-4(b)--palming. Is palming a violation? No! It's what you do after you palm the ball that determines whether or not the dribbler violates. The "palm" only ends the dribble. If you dribble again after palming the ball, you have an illegal second dribble. If you move your pivot foot illegally while palming the ball, you're traveling. If you "palm" and then immediately pass or shoot, it's a legal play.

The play being discussed is really no different than ending a dribble by palming the ball. What the player does after ending their dribble determines the call or no-call.