Question

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I've heard clinicians talk about this at camp in relation to a blocked shot a few times. Some are of the opinion that if a blocked shot attempt is 80% clean and 20% contact, let it go. More 'camp speak.'

I have heard more of a claim that if the block is clean, let the play continue. Usually the term is "that is a play through."

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I've heard clinicians talk about this at camp in relation to a blocked shot a few times. Some are of the opinion that if a blocked shot attempt is 80% clean and 20% contact, let it go. More 'camp speak.'

Then maybe you should call the foul on 80% of the player's number, i.e.: foul is on number 12, you call it on number 9.6, etc.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Then maybe you should call the foul on 80% of the player's number, i.e.: foul is on number 12, you call it on number 9.6, etc.

So Mark, any body part in particular you would use to communicate the "point"?

Hmmm....? Mark?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So Mark, any body part in particular you would use to communicate the "point"?

Hmmm....? Mark?

I think Juulie would have the advantage on me here.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

You’re in the L position on the endline, A1 attempts a lay up off the drive, at the basket B5 jumps slightly into A1s plane (lil’ body, patient whistle) but getting all ball almost simultaneously. I’m familiar with 80/20 principle but if it was 20 body first then 80 ball & the try is unsuccessful… we gotta defensive foul right?

By NFHS regs & what clinicians will be looking for this summer, is the preferred signal when reporting this foul to the table a block? I’ve seen it reported a few different ways.

You got a lot of difference responses here because this is a very good question. If you are new and just starting out, I would call this a foul. The reason is, nobody going to fault you for calling this a foul. In fact, in NFHS it is a foul and there's no such thing as a 80/20. Throw that out.

In college men's, you analyzed the play correctly, with the patient whistle. Now, we have to look at the end result of the play. If the guy blocked the shot, I got nothing, you let the good defensive play stand. We don't punish good defense. However, the same play and I'm lead and I got a bump on the offensive player, and then the subsequent block of the shot. I put air in the whistle, defense. However, I wish I would have passed because it was a good block. Too late, I already called it, can't take it back, it happens. I looked like and felt like an amatuer making that call. This is why they preach patient whistle. See the play thru. However, at the upper levels, patient whistle could also mean miss the play because the athletes are so quick. So there's a balance, and sometimes you're going to miss. I don't 2nd guess myself here, I just try to be consistent. If I screw it up on this end of the court, then it's going to be a foul on the other end. That's all you can do on this type of play.

You ever notice how when you make a call as the lead, you become the new lead on the other end. This helps to call the game consistently. I think they are talking about taking that away for next year. The calling official will become the C in NCAA Men's.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by Old School

You got a lot of difference responses here because this is a very good question. If you are new and just starting out, I would call this a foul. The reason is, nobody going to fault you for calling this a foul. In fact, in NFHS it is a foul and there's no such thing as a 80/20. Throw that out.

In college men's, you analyzed the play correctly, with the patient whistle. Now, we have to look at the end result of the play. If the guy blocked the shot, I got nothing, you let the good defensive play stand. We don't punish good defense. However, the same play and I'm lead and I got a bump on the offensive player, and then the subsequent block of the shot. I put air in the whistle, defense. However, I wish I would have passed because it was a good block. Too late, I already called it, can't take it back, it happens. I looked like and felt like an amatuer making that call. This is why they preach patient whistle. See the play thru. However, at the upper levels, patient whistle could also mean miss the play because the athletes are so quick. So there's a balance, and sometimes you're going to miss. I don't 2nd guess myself here, I just try to be consistent. If I screw it up on this end of the court, then it's going to be a foul on the other end. That's all you can do on this type of play.

You ever notice how when you make a call as the lead, you become the new lead on the other end. This helps to call the game consistently. I think they are talking about taking that away for next year. The calling official will become the C in NCAA Men's.

So you are telling me that if you screw up a play on one end, you screw it up on the other right? This is to be consistant right? So you want to be consistantly wrong... Gotcha.

How bout... I screw it up on one end (it does happen) but I learn from it and if it happens on the other end I go ahead and get it right on the other end and do the game right. If the coach asks about it, I have to tell him that I got the play wrong originally but I am working very hard to get the rest of them right. That is how a pro would handle it.

And BS on the stuff not applying in NFHS b/c it does. You have to judge each play as it happens.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

So you are telling me that if you screw up a play on one end, you screw it up on the other right? This is to be consistant right? So you want to be consistantly wrong... Gotcha.

How bout... I screw it up on one end (it does happen) but I learn from it and if it happens on the other end I go ahead and get it right on the other end and do the game right. If the coach asks about it, I have to tell him that I got the play wrong originally but I am working very hard to get the rest of them right. That is how a pro would handle it.

And BS on the stuff not applying in NFHS b/c it does. You have to judge each play as it happens.

Disagree. I think it is best to be consistent on both ends of the floor to balance the art of fair play, which is what we are there to do. I don't think it's right for you to penalize a player on one end, and then let it go on the other end. I don't know what type of coaches you get to do your games, but if I'm coaching, I'm picking up on that right away and you and your crew is going to get an ear-full from me. In fact, that starts the BS because there is nothing you can say that's going to satisfy me here except to call the game consistently.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't know what type of coaches you get to do your games, but if I'm coaching, I'm picking up on that right away and you and your crew is going to get an ear-full from me.

Not for long.

Originally Posted by Old School

In fact, that starts the BS because there is nothing you can say that's going to satisfy me here except to call the game consistently.

I don't need to satisfy the coach, I only need to calm him down. If I can't do that, then game management will be escorting him from the gymnasium. Pretty simple, really.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Disagree. I think it is best to be consistent on both ends of the floor to balance the art of fair play, which is what we are there to do. I don't think it's right for you to penalize a player on one end, and then let it go on the other end. I don't know what type of coaches you get to do your games, but if I'm coaching, I'm picking up on that right away and you and your crew is going to get an ear-full from me. In fact, that starts the BS because there is nothing you can say that's going to satisfy me here except to call the game consistently.

If you blow a call, you NEVER deliberately blow the same call for the rest of the game just to show the world that you're consistent. All you're doing is showing everybody that you're consistently wrong! Coaches sureashell are gonna pick up on any clown that did something like that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Jurrasic, I value your opinions & think you provide the forum with great knowledge, in fact I was hoping to see you chime in with some answers to my OP.
The 80/20 principle helped me alot because as we know any yahoo can blow a whistle & call fouls, but a good official has a feel for the game & can determine whether certain contact warrants a foul being called. 80/20 is good way to make good block shots calls vs. a foul IMHO.

If that principle helps you call the game, then more power to you. I guess the reason I do not like it because I do not need to weigh the percentage of contact with how much ball is blocked. If the defender did nothing illegal (got to the ball first) the contact can be severe and I am not calling a foul. If the defender caused contact to complete the block, then I have a foul. I think it is easier to stick to another philosophy or wording to come up with a similar result.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Jurrasic, I value your opinions & think you provide the forum with great knowledge, in fact I was hoping to see you chime in with some answers to my OP.
The 80/20 principle helped me alot because as we know any yahoo can blow a whistle & call fouls, but a good official has a feel for the game & can determine whether certain contact warrants a foul being called. 80/20 is good way to make good block shots calls vs. a foul IMHO.

I'm sorry for not responding earlier; I simply did not see this post. My apologies.

I'll try to answer it the best way that I can, bearing in mind that there really is no way to definitively answer the questions that have arisen imo.

Calling a foul for contact on a block attempt is a straight judgment call imo. The rules give us some guidance, but they don't cover all situations, also imo. For instance, NFHS case book play 4.19.3SitB states that you you should call an intentional foul if defensive contact from behind puts the shooter on the floor, even though the defender may have gotten "all ball" on the block. The bottom line though is that each individual official has to judge whether the contact that occurs on plays like these is incidental contact or illegal contact. The gray area also increases when you move from level to level. More physical contact is expected at the D1 level as opposed to, say, the JV high school level. Some D1 conferences are traditionally known for allowing a greater level of contact also.

Each official usually formulates their own tolerance level through experience and also by observing fellow local officials when it comes to the amount of contact that they will allow during a shot. As I said, it's simply a judgment call by the calling official anyway. Hopefully, you end up calling the contact consistently and evenly at both ends of the court. Players and coaches need those guidelines established so that they know what they can do and not do in that particular game.

Note that the "consistency" that I'm talking about sureasheck is not Old School's brand of consistency where he is advocating repeating bad calls.

80/20 is completely meaningless in the context of what I've described above imo. All that is doing, also imo, is making the call harder and more confusing, especially to newer officials. Maybe I'm not good enough, but I don't think that I could just freeze-frame a call and then try to decide whether there was 79, 80, 0r 81% contact. That's way too deep for me. All I do do is look at the play and say that the defender either whacked the shooter and gained an illegal advantage by doing so, or the defender made incidental contact that didn't affect the shooter enough to warrant a foul call. The bottom line is still that the call depends on your judgment. As I said, I'm a firm believer in not trying to overthink what you're doing out there.

I also personally use a "push" foul signal if I deemed that the defender committed illegal contact with his body, and the "illegal use of hand" signal if the defender whacked the shooter on an arm.

Don't know if that helps any, but as I said, I really don't think that there really is a definitive answer as to what constitutes a foul in these situations. It's a straight judgment call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

You have to judge each play as it happens.

Stick that stoopid 80/20 nonsense where the sun don't shine and use this philosophy. If it's a freaking foul, call the damn thing. If it isn't a freaking foul, don't call anything. If you don't know what a freaking foul is, then you either learn or you try some other avocation.

Lah me.......sometimes I think that fanboys instead of fellow officials come up with some of these stoopid damn theories just to get even with us for screwing their favorite teams.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Stick that stoopid 80/20 nonsense where the sun don't shine and use this philosophy. If it's a freaking foul, call the damn thing. If it isn't a freaking foul, don't call anything. If you don't know what a freaking foul is, then you either learn or you try some other avocation.

Lah me.......sometimes I think that fanboys instead of fellow officials come up with some of these stoopid damn theories just to get even with us for screwing their favorite teams.

Whoa, Whoa JR.... How'd I get lumped in with the fan boys? All I am saying, is that you have to judge each play and determine who is responsible for the contact and did the contact create an advantage?

But I got the message from OS... If i am wrong on one end, I need to be wrong on the other to be consistant...even if it means I am consistantly wrong! Brilliant!!!

Hey OS... That is where I tell the coach, Hey man I blew it, but it won't happen again. Most coaches accept that. If you are the coach and don't well then... you get whacked. If you go in to another tirade about it, guess what my partner whacks you and then you can deal with your AD and the commish of the conf. End 'o Story.

[Brad]

I agree with fanboy ... er ... bball_junkie -- the call is the same at every level - it's either a foul or it isn't.

I've heard of the 80/20 thing and I've used it myself to get across the point that just because their is some body contact, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a foul. If the defensive player mostly blocks the ball, but, in doing so, there is also some body contact, let it go.

Most officials that I see calling fouls on this type of play say "He got him with the body" -- that's when you know it is a BS foul.

80/20, advantage/disadvantage, just call the freaking foul, etc. -- it's all saying the same thing, just in different ways.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

But I got the message from OS... If i am wrong on one end, I need to be wrong on the other to be consistant...even if it means I am consistantly wrong! Brilliant!!!

Hey OS... That is where I tell the coach, Hey man I blew it, but it won't happen again. Most coaches accept that. If you are the coach and don't well then... you get whacked. If you go in to another tirade about it, guess what my partner whacks you and then you can deal with your AD and the commish of the conf. End 'o Story.

#1, let's back up a minute. We are talking about a questionable foul call, could go either way. I go the way of foul, because I quick whistle it, thought I had a foul but you know what, I probalby could have passed on that one. These type of things happen in a game, it's the reality of the job we do. The thing you can't do is take it back. You will look like a bigger idiot trying to do that. So we have to go forward. Well, if it's a foul down here it's going to be a foul down there. That's all I'm saying.

What you and Snaqs fail to understand is we live in the age of media. I got the game on tape, and the tape don't live. I got you making the call here and not making the same type of call there. Now, you have escalated it to me getting toss. Now, I point out to your assigner how you where being inconsistent which lead to me getting tossed. Yea, you're right. I'll eat it with my AD and serve my suspension, but you, you might not get to work anymore of my games, or worse, you might get a call from your assigner.