Question

You’re in the L position on the endline, A1 attempts a lay up off the drive, at the basket B5 jumps slightly into A1s plane (lil’ body, patient whistle) but getting all ball almost simultaneously. I’m familiar with 80/20 principle but if it was 20 body first then 80 ball & the try is unsuccessful… we gotta defensive foul right?

By NFHS regs & what clinicians will be looking for this summer, is the preferred signal when reporting this foul to the table a block? I’ve seen it reported a few different ways.

[JRutledge]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this 80/20 principle. I do not think I have ever heard that and do not see how that makes a difference in a call.

Peace

[NewNCref]

I, too, am unfamiliar with this 80/20 concept. And it seems to me as if the only foul on this play was a jumping into the player, which I usually signal as a push, as B5 was dislodging A1 from his already established position. Then again, depending on how quickly A1 is moving toward the basket, and the angle and speed at which B5 comes in, I could also see going with a block here.

I guess my point is, I would take a common sense look at the play, and say to myself, "did the foul cause the offensive player to change direction?" If yes, then I've got a push, if no, then I've got a block.

Really? How about advantage/dsadvantage, 5 Ps of great officiating or the Oswald Tower Philosophy?

NOTE:
80/20
LETS REVISIT THIS CONTACT
By Gordon Strike

This is supposed to mean 80% ball contact and 20% player contact from an equally favorable position. This type of contact is considered incidental even if it is severe. The key is, equally favorable position. Consider this: the ball is skipped from one side to the other, allowing a good look at the basket with the defenseman 6-10 feet away from the shooter. The defensive player runs and flies toward the shooter clearly blocking the shot and sending it to the cheap seats. The defensive mans momentum carries him into the shooter who has returned to the floor and knocks the shooter to the floor. Is this a foul? He blocked the shot so he got part of the 80/20 rule right. But this is not the 80/20 rule, this is the 20/80 rule. 20% ball and 80% body contact. This is a foul and needs to be called.

The fans, coach and players will yell, “Great Block!” And it was. But the contact after the block is a foul because B was not playing A from a favorable position. He was too far away to adequately play defense and stop his shot. “A” had gained the advantage and that advantage should not be taken away from him just because B made great ball contact. Far to often this foul is not called because of the great block by B.

This call can be make correctly as follows. If the contact on A by B would be a foul if the shot was NOT blocked, then it is a foul if the shot IS blocked. Whether a foul is called or not, should be based on the contact and not on whether the shot is blocked or not. If the shooter is still in the air, it is a shooting foul. If the shooter has returned to the floor, it is just a common foul...


It goes on but that's the jist of it.

[NewNCref]

Okay, advantage/disadvantage I can talk about. This whole 80/20 business just seems to complicate the issue. As the writer readily admits, the blocking of the shot is really inconsequential. A foul is a foul if a foul is a foul......even if he goes on to do a quadruple-lutz, grand slam, windmill, perpetual motion slam dunk. Anyways, I wasn't there to see the contact but if you think it was a foul, then call it. And I'll stick with what I said earlier about reporting it.

[JRutledge]

With that being said, I would not call a foul based on this principle. I would only call a foul based who I feel caused a real advantage or real disadvantage. I fell on block shots if the defender did something legal, why penalize them at all for contact they did not cause?

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Really? How about advantage/dsadvantage, 5 Ps of great officiating or the Oswald Tower Philosophy?

NOTE:
80/20
LETS REVISIT THIS CONTACT
By Gordon Strike

This is supposed to mean 80% ball contact and 20% player contact from an equally favorable position. This type of contact is considered incidental even if it is severe. The key is, equally favorable position. Consider this: the ball is skipped from one side to the other, allowing a good look at the basket with the defenseman 6-10 feet away from the shooter. The defensive player runs and flies toward the shooter clearly blocking the shot and sending it to the cheap seats. The defensive mans momentum carries him into the shooter who has returned to the floor and knocks the shooter to the floor. Is this a foul? He blocked the shot so he got part of the 80/20 rule right. But this is not the 80/20 rule, this is the 20/80 rule. 20% ball and 80% body contact. This is a foul and needs to be called.

The fans, coach and players will yell, “Great Block!” And it was. But the contact after the block is a foul because B was not playing A from a favorable position. He was too far away to adequately play defense and stop his shot. “A” had gained the advantage and that advantage should not be taken away from him just because B made great ball contact. Far to often this foul is not called because of the great block by B.

This call can be make correctly as follows. If the contact on A by B would be a foul if the shot was NOT blocked, then it is a foul if the shot IS blocked. Whether a foul is called or not, should be based on the contact and not on whether the shot is blocked or not. If the shooter is still in the air, it is a shooting foul. If the shooter has returned to the floor, it is just a common foul...


It goes on but that's the jist of it.

IMO the sentence in red is not a foul unless the contact is so violent that you can't pass on it. What you can't pass on is at your discretion.

The phrase in blue I totally disagree with. To be clear I'm picturing very athletic college level players when I think of this play:

A1 on a break away with B1 running him down. A1 gets to the rim to lay it in and B1, who catches A1, goes to block the ball and does in fact get the ball before body contact, but then subsequently knocks A1 to the floor. Not violently, but knocks him to the floor. Foul or no foul?

I have been taught that this is a "play on". If you block the shot and then make body contact, I have no problem with it most of the time because you don't illegally contact the player while trying to make a play. Now if you make body contact and then block the shot, I have a problem there, cause the player may have had to come through the offensive players space to block the shot.

To give an example: I had a play this year where the defender got stuck behind the offensive player (they were about 6 ft. from the basket, weird for the defender to be behind, I know). The offensive player knew where the defender was so he upfaked and the defender bit and jumped. While the defender was on his way down the offensive player started to go up. On the way up the defender made slight contact with the shooter on his way down, but then after the contact, he blocked the ball so clean. I blew the whistle. In my judgement the player created contact and in creating that contact he was able to block the shot. Had he blocked it first then contact I would have left it alone.


My point being let the defender make great defensive plays if he doesn't make contact before he blocks the shot.

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=btaylor64]
The offensive player knew where the defender was so he upfaked and the defender bit and jumped. While the defender was on his way down the offensive player started to go up. On the way up the defender made slight contact with the shooter on his way down, but then after the contact, he blocked the ball so clean. I blew the whistle. In my judgement the player created contact and in creating that contact he was able to block the shot. Had he blocked it first then contact I would have left it alone.

Question: Why contact was not severe enough to warrant an initial whistle? You stated yourself that is was slight contact. I know, I know patience whislte waiting to see the entire play develop.

[btaylor64]

[QUOTE=truerookie]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

The offensive player knew where the defender was so he upfaked and the defender bit and jumped. While the defender was on his way down the offensive player started to go up. On the way up the defender made slight contact with the shooter on his way down, but then after the contact, he blocked the ball so clean. I blew the whistle. In my judgement the player created contact and in creating that contact he was able to block the shot. Had he blocked it first then contact I would have left it alone.

Question: Why contact was not severe enough to warrant an initial whistle? You stated yourself that is was slight contact. I know, I know patience whislte waiting to see the entire play develop.

I saw the whole play through and blew the whistle. No matter how slight, it was contact on the jump shooter with the ball still in his hand. He took a knee to the back before the player smacked all ball, hence the foul.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this 80/20 principle. I do not think I have ever heard that and do not see how that makes a difference in a call.

Peace

I've heard clinicians talk about this at camp in relation to a blocked shot a few times. Some are of the opinion that if a blocked shot attempt is 80% clean and 20% contact, let it go. More 'camp speak.'

Okay, so the proper NFHS signal for a bump in the air or "body" should be reported a push NOT a block?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Okay, so the proper NFHS signal for a bump in the air or "body" should be reported a push NOT a block?

I have always been taught if there is contact with the body, it would be a block, but if the contact is with the hand or arms, it could be a push or illegal contact signal. However, I don't think you will get much feedback on either call. From the camps I've attended, there isn't a lot of emphasis put on the exact type of foul called. However, I have heard comments if you give one type of preliminary signal at the spot, and give a different signal at the table; that shows uncertainty of the call. But don't get too hung up on the subtle differences between the individual types of fouls. Just make sure you have a foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Okay, so the proper NFHS signal for a bump in the air or "body" should be reported a push NOT a block?

I really do not think it matters. I mostly only call a block when there is a possible block/charge type of foul or a clear illegal screen. I do not think it is about what the NF says considering that I have never heard the NF specifically address why the signals are used and should not be used in specific situations.

Personally based on what you described, I would likely go with a push call.

Peace

[Junker]

How about it is a block if the defender prevents the offensive player from getting to a spot? It is a push if the defender moves the offensive player to a different spot. Just a simple way of thinking about the difference between calling a foul a block or a push. I just came up with this so if it sounds like bs, let me know.

Appreciate the touchback, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a preferred signal for this foul as I've seen it reported different ways.
I wouldn't want to be that guy sticking out at camp for the wrong reasons.