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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:03am
Ch1town
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Question

You’re in the L position on the endline, A1 attempts a lay up off the drive, at the basket B5 jumps slightly into A1s plane (lil’ body, patient whistle) but getting all ball almost simultaneously. I’m familiar with 80/20 principle but if it was 20 body first then 80 ball & the try is unsuccessful… we gotta defensive foul right?

By NFHS regs & what clinicians will be looking for this summer, is the preferred signal when reporting this foul to the table a block? I’ve seen it reported a few different ways.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:12am
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I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this 80/20 principle. I do not think I have ever heard that and do not see how that makes a difference in a call.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:21am
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I, too, am unfamiliar with this 80/20 concept. And it seems to me as if the only foul on this play was a jumping into the player, which I usually signal as a push, as B5 was dislodging A1 from his already established position. Then again, depending on how quickly A1 is moving toward the basket, and the angle and speed at which B5 comes in, I could also see going with a block here.

I guess my point is, I would take a common sense look at the play, and say to myself, "did the foul cause the offensive player to change direction?" If yes, then I've got a push, if no, then I've got a block.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:24am
Ch1town
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Really? How about advantage/dsadvantage, 5 Ps of great officiating or the Oswald Tower Philosophy?

NOTE:
80/20
LETS REVISIT THIS CONTACT
By Gordon Strike

This is supposed to mean 80% ball contact and 20% player contact from an equally favorable position. This type of contact is considered incidental even if it is severe. The key is, equally favorable position. Consider this: the ball is skipped from one side to the other, allowing a good look at the basket with the defenseman 6-10 feet away from the shooter. The defensive player runs and flies toward the shooter clearly blocking the shot and sending it to the cheap seats. The defensive mans momentum carries him into the shooter who has returned to the floor and knocks the shooter to the floor. Is this a foul? He blocked the shot so he got part of the 80/20 rule right. But this is not the 80/20 rule, this is the 20/80 rule. 20% ball and 80% body contact. This is a foul and needs to be called.

The fans, coach and players will yell, “Great Block!” And it was. But the contact after the block is a foul because B was not playing A from a favorable position. He was too far away to adequately play defense and stop his shot. “A” had gained the advantage and that advantage should not be taken away from him just because B made great ball contact. Far to often this foul is not called because of the great block by B.

This call can be make correctly as follows. If the contact on A by B would be a foul if the shot was NOT blocked, then it is a foul if the shot IS blocked. Whether a foul is called or not, should be based on the contact and not on whether the shot is blocked or not. If the shooter is still in the air, it is a shooting foul. If the shooter has returned to the floor, it is just a common foul...



It goes on but that's the jist of it.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:35am
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Okay, advantage/disadvantage I can talk about. This whole 80/20 business just seems to complicate the issue. As the writer readily admits, the blocking of the shot is really inconsequential. A foul is a foul if a foul is a foul......even if he goes on to do a quadruple-lutz, grand slam, windmill, perpetual motion slam dunk. Anyways, I wasn't there to see the contact but if you think it was a foul, then call it. And I'll stick with what I said earlier about reporting it.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:36am
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With that being said, I would not call a foul based on this principle. I would only call a foul based who I feel caused a real advantage or real disadvantage. I fell on block shots if the defender did something legal, why penalize them at all for contact they did not cause?

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this 80/20 principle. I do not think I have ever heard that and do not see how that makes a difference in a call.

Peace
I've heard clinicians talk about this at camp in relation to a blocked shot a few times. Some are of the opinion that if a blocked shot attempt is 80% clean and 20% contact, let it go. More 'camp speak.'
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 10:46am
Ch1town
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Okay, so the proper NFHS signal for a bump in the air or "body" should be reported a push NOT a block?
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Okay, so the proper NFHS signal for a bump in the air or "body" should be reported a push NOT a block?
I have always been taught if there is contact with the body, it would be a block, but if the contact is with the hand or arms, it could be a push or illegal contact signal. However, I don't think you will get much feedback on either call. From the camps I've attended, there isn't a lot of emphasis put on the exact type of foul called. However, I have heard comments if you give one type of preliminary signal at the spot, and give a different signal at the table; that shows uncertainty of the call. But don't get too hung up on the subtle differences between the individual types of fouls. Just make sure you have a foul.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
I've heard clinicians talk about this at camp in relation to a blocked shot a few times. Some are of the opinion that if a blocked shot attempt is 80% clean and 20% contact, let it go. More 'camp speak.'
I have heard more of a claim that if the block is clean, let the play continue. Usually the term is "that is a play through."

Peace
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Okay, so the proper NFHS signal for a bump in the air or "body" should be reported a push NOT a block?
I really do not think it matters. I mostly only call a block when there is a possible block/charge type of foul or a clear illegal screen. I do not think it is about what the NF says considering that I have never heard the NF specifically address why the signals are used and should not be used in specific situations.

Personally based on what you described, I would likely go with a push call.

Peace
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 12:16pm
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How about it is a block if the defender prevents the offensive player from getting to a spot? It is a push if the defender moves the offensive player to a different spot. Just a simple way of thinking about the difference between calling a foul a block or a push. I just came up with this so if it sounds like bs, let me know.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
You’re in the L position on the endline, A1 attempts a lay up off the drive, at the basket B5 jumps slightly into A1s plane (lil’ body, patient whistle) but getting all ball almost simultaneously. I’m familiar with 80/20 principle but if it was 20 body first then 80 ball & the try is unsuccessful… we gotta defensive foul right?

By NFHS regs & what clinicians will be looking for this summer, is the preferred signal when reporting this foul to the table a block? I’ve seen it reported a few different ways.
You got a lot of difference responses here because this is a very good question. If you are new and just starting out, I would call this a foul. The reason is, nobody going to fault you for calling this a foul. In fact, in NFHS it is a foul and there's no such thing as a 80/20. Throw that out.

In college men's, you analyzed the play correctly, with the patient whistle. Now, we have to look at the end result of the play. If the guy blocked the shot, I got nothing, you let the good defensive play stand. We don't punish good defense. However, the same play and I'm lead and I got a bump on the offensive player, and then the subsequent block of the shot. I put air in the whistle, defense. However, I wish I would have passed because it was a good block. Too late, I already called it, can't take it back, it happens. I looked like and felt like an amatuer making that call. This is why they preach patient whistle. See the play thru. However, at the upper levels, patient whistle could also mean miss the play because the athletes are so quick. So there's a balance, and sometimes you're going to miss. I don't 2nd guess myself here, I just try to be consistent. If I screw it up on this end of the court, then it's going to be a foul on the other end. That's all you can do on this type of play.

You ever notice how when you make a call as the lead, you become the new lead on the other end. This helps to call the game consistently. I think they are talking about taking that away for next year. The calling official will become the C in NCAA Men's.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 12:20pm
Ch1town
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Appreciate the touchback, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a preferred signal for this foul as I've seen it reported different ways.
I wouldn't want to be that guy sticking out at camp for the wrong reasons.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 12:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
You got a lot of difference responses here because this is a very good question. If you are new and just starting out, I would call this a foul. The reason is, nobody going to fault you for calling this a foul. In fact, in NFHS it is a foul and there's no such thing as a 80/20. Throw that out.

In college men's, you analyzed the play correctly, with the patient whistle. Now, we have to look at the end result of the play. If the guy blocked the shot, I got nothing, you let the good defensive play stand. We don't punish good defense. However, the same play and I'm lead and I got a bump on the offensive player, and then the subsequent block of the shot. I put air in the whistle, defense. However, I wish I would have passed because it was a good block. Too late, I already called it, can't take it back, it happens. I looked like and felt like an amatuer making that call. This is why they preach patient whistle. See the play thru. However, at the upper levels, patient whistle could also mean miss the play because the athletes are so quick. So there's a balance, and sometimes you're going to miss. I don't 2nd guess myself here, I just try to be consistent. If I screw it up on this end of the court, then it's going to be a foul on the other end. That's all you can do on this type of play.

You ever notice how when you make a call as the lead, you become the new lead on the other end. This helps to call the game consistently. I think they are talking about taking that away for next year. The calling official will become the C in NCAA Men's.
So you are telling me that if you screw up a play on one end, you screw it up on the other right? This is to be consistant right? So you want to be consistantly wrong... Gotcha.

How bout... I screw it up on one end (it does happen) but I learn from it and if it happens on the other end I go ahead and get it right on the other end and do the game right. If the coach asks about it, I have to tell him that I got the play wrong originally but I am working very hard to get the rest of them right. That is how a pro would handle it.

And BS on the stuff not applying in NFHS b/c it does. You have to judge each play as it happens.
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