over & back?

[DC_Ref12]

Man, he's got you guys in the palm of his hand.

[JugglingReferee]

I said it a month ago and I'll say it again: OS is just stirring the pot.

[Old School]

I "thought" and I stand corrected that the ball was slapped away, and thus TC was lost, like an interrupted dribble, and while it hit the players foot, the player did not have control of it, thus, the ball was tipped into the BC, and fair game for anyone to recover wherever it goes.

Let's say the ball was passed and reflected by B1 and goes into the BC. Anyone can recover. However, let's say the ball was tipped and reflected off of A2's hand while trying to recover and it goes into the BC. A2 goes into the BC to retreive it. Is this a violation?

Now I know a team doesn't lose control (TC) on a pass, but if the ball was reflected by B1 into the BC and no one from the offense touched it, then the offense recovers it, TC was never lost by rule, why is this not a violation? However, if it reflects off the offense and goes into the BC and the offense recovers it, it is? Doesn't seem right.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

I "thought" and I stand corrected that the ball was slapped away, and thus TC was lost, like an interrupted dribble, and while it hit the players foot, the player did not have control of it, thus, the ball was tipped into the BC, and fair game for anyone to recover wherever it goes.

Let's say the ball was passed and reflected by B1 and goes into the BC. Anyone can recover. However, let's say the ball was tipped and reflected off of A2's hand while trying to recover and it goes into the BC. A2 goes into the BC to retreive it. Is this a violation?

Now I know a team doesn't lose control (TC) on a pass, but if the ball was reflected by B1 into the BC and no one from the offense touched it, then the offense recovers it, TC was never lost by rule, why is this not a violation? However, if it reflects off the offense and goes into the BC and the offense recovers it, it is? Doesn't seem right.

Old School:

The answer to your question at the end of your second paragraph above is yes, this is a backcourt violation by Team A. Why? The ball was last touched by a player from Team A in its frontcourt before it attained backcourt status and then a player from Team A was the first player to touch it after it attained backcourt status.

Why isn't a violation in your third paragraph? For the same reason it was a violation in your second paragraph. A player from Team A was not the last player to touch the ball in Team A's frontcourt before the ball attained backcourt status.

The mistake that many people (officials, couches, players, fans, sports journalists, including Billy Packer) is that the rule does not care how the ball was caused to go from frontcourt to backcourt but which player last touched the ball while the ball had frontcourt status before the ball attained backcourt status and then which player first touched the ball after it had attained backcourt status. The rule as written removes judgement from the equation. The rule does not care what actions caused the ball to go from frontcourt to backcourt, only that it did go from frontcourt to backcourt.

Also, team control does not end during an interrupted dribble. The team in control of the ball can lose control of the ball in one of three ways: (1) The ball becomes dead. (2) An offensive player releases the ball during a field goal attempt (see player control exception) or free throw. (3) A player from the other team gains player control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

The answer to your question at the end of your second paragraph above is yes, this is a backcourt violation by Team A. Why? The ball was last touched by a player from Team A in its frontcourt before it attained backcourt status and then a player from Team A was the first player to touch it after it attained backcourt status.

Why isn't a violation in your third paragraph? For the same reason it was a violation in your second paragraph. A player from Team A was not the last player to touch the ball in Team A's frontcourt before the ball attained backcourt status.

The mistake that many people (officials, couches, players, fans, sports journalists, including Billy Packer) is that the rule does not care how the ball was caused to go from frontcourt to backcourt but which player last touched the ball while the ball had frontcourt status before the ball attained backcourt status and then which player first touched the ball after it had attained backcourt status. The rule as written removes judgement from the equation. The rule does not care what actions caused the ball to go from frontcourt to backcourt, only that it did go from frontcourt to backcourt.

Also, team control does not end during an interrupted dribble. The team in control of the ball can lose control of the ball in one of three ways: (1) The ball becomes dead. (2) An offensive player releases the ball during a field goal attempt (see player control exception) or free throw. (3) A player from the other team gains player control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

Very well stated, I learned something today. Thank you!

[cmckenna]

You have stated to us numerous times that you work hundreds of games at high levels (I believe you have even stated that you have done NCAA) then you should know the answer to these backcourt situations.

God I really feel sorry for any teams that get you as an official.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cmckenna

You have stated to us numerous times that you work hundreds of games at high levels (I believe you have even stated that you have done NCAA) then you should know the answer to these backcourt situations.

God I really feel sorry for any teams that get you as an official.

Never said he did NCAA, from what I recall. He said he's done "college." Personally, I think he's talking intramural college ball.
Regardless, he's also been in discussions on this very board regarding this play and regarding whether team control is lost on an interrupted dribble.

[WAWhistleBlower]

The Mark's have it....this is a backcourt violation. Never a kick ball unless intentional.
Along with the rule reference Denucci quoted, we also need to clarify what constitutes team control:

(ncaa)
Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or
c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
Art. 3. Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for
goal, an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead.
BR-69
Art. 4. There shall be no team control during:
a. A jump ball;
b. The tapping of a rebound (unless it is a try for goal);
c. A try for goal after the ball is in flight;
d. The period that follows any of these acts (a-c) while the ball is being batted
(from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control;
e. A dead ball.
Art. 5. Team control is re-established in Article 4 of this Rule when a
player secures control.
Art. 6. “Control” for purposes of establishing the alternating-possession procedure
occurs when:
a. A player is in control;
b. The ball is handed/bounced to or placed at the disposal of the freethrower
after a common foul or placed at the disposal of a throwerin.