False Double Foul with Held Whistle

[NewNCref]

College Intramural Championships. Fed Rules.

As Team A is driving toward the basket, B6 (on the bench) screams at me (I'm C) "When are you going to start calling some f***ing fouls!" I hold whistle until play is over, but it end with a shooting foul committed by B1 on A1.

The question is, this is a false double foul, but how do you administer the free throws? I know you do it for the foul that occurred first, so I reasoned that the T actually occurred first but the whistle was just delayed. I am R, so U1 and U2 come to conference about what to do. We gave 2 shots for the T with the lane cleared, and then put people on the lane for 2 shots by A2.

Is this right?

[Nevadaref]

Great question and you make a valid point.

However, I would have done the reverse. I would have penalized them in the order in which they were actually charged.

I would have cleared the lane and shot the 2FTs for the shooting foul by B1, then with the lane still empty, shot the 2FTs for the T on B6, then awarded Team A the ball at the division line opposite the table.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I do not feel like climbing up into the attic to get my rules book, but there is a NFHS Casebook Play, where it is the B's Head Coach that commits the technical foul while A1 is dribbling in for an uncontested layup, but the Casebook Play is not complicated by a personal foul by B1 against A1.

The Casebook Play tells us that the official should hold his whistle so that A1 can finish attempting his uncontested layup, because if B-HC was to be whistled immediately for the TF, the ball would become dead and Team B would benefit from B-HC's TF. Therefore, I would say that the order of the fouls is the personal foul by B1 followed by the TF by B-HC. Under NCAA Men's/Women's Rules, the TF free throws would be shot first as a poing of interruption foul and then shoot the free throws for B1 foul as if that was the only foul.

So yes this is a false multiple foul under both NFHS and NCAA rules.

And NevadaRef, I just said in 1,000 words what you said in 100.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Given that the Fed wants us to hold the whistle here, this would be a good idea for a case play to clarify which order we should enforce these. Of course, this assumes the Fed doesn't go to POI on all Technical fouls.

[All_Heart]

Great Question! This is why I love this forum!

For NCAA wouldn't this be handled the same? Shoot the technical free throws and then shoot the free throws from the shooting foul. If the technical happens first then it is handled in order. If the shooting foul happens first then you adminster the technical free throws and then go to POI (which is the shooting foul).

Because this is NFHS rules, NevadaRef sounds correct. I would like to see this in the book!

[Adam]

Doesn't the rule say the order in which they occur? Seems to me that based on that wording, it should be done the way the OP did it; except A1 should have shot the free throws with the lane occupied.
However, the concept of holding the whistle with Fed blessing makes me think the rulesmakers would want us to do it as Nevada and Mark suggest. Consistency leads me in that direction.

Again, I'd like to see the relevant case play modified to include a shooting foul. By the way, the Case Play is 10.4.1, "the official shall withhold blowing the whistle until A1 has either made or missed the shot."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't the rule say the order in which they occur? Seems to me that based on that wording, it should be done the way the OP did it...

The problem with saying that the technical foul happened first is that the ball would then be dead at that time (the official's whistle doesn't matter Fundamental #16 page 74) and no personal foul by the defense could subsequently be committed and no goal could be scored. (Yeah, yeah, there are a few exceptions that aren't relevant here.) Thus I think that we must choose to penalize the poor conduct of the nonscoring team after the play finishes in order to prevent taking an advantage away from the other team.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The problem with saying that the technical foul happened first is that the ball would then be dead at that time (the official's whistle doesn't matter Fundamental #16 page 74) and no personal foul by the defense could subsequently be committed and no goal could be scored. (Yeah, yeah, there are a few exceptions that aren't relevant here.) Thus I think that we must choose to penalize the poor conduct of the nonscoring team after the play finishes in order to prevent taking an advantage away from the other team.

But it seems to me that the intent of the case play mentioned earlier is to delay the ball being made dead, despite the fact that a foul has occurred. Therefore, this is an exception in which a technical foul occurs, but the ball does not become dead.

We have delayed lane violations, which seem to serve a similar purpose, to allow the play to develop despite the fact that a violation has already occurred. If someone asked you when the violation occurred, you would certainly say that it occurred before the ball became dead.

The pertinent word here is occurred. I think the rule is asking us to wait and penalize the foul once we are sure that the offense isn't making a scoring attempt, despite the fact that the foul occurred earlier.

[TRef21]

In NCAA, you adminster the the technical foul first then the common foul whether its shooting our bonus and resume play off the make or miss.

[Mark Dexter]

First off, wouldn't this be a false multiple foul? A double foul requires each team to commit a foul. In this situation, both were committed by team B.

Great situation (and all too common in intramurals!). The Talmudic question here is, obviously, does an unsporting technical foul take place when the unsportsmanlike behavior occurs or when the official signals the T?

You could make the 6-7-7 argument here. The ball is dead when "a foul, other than player or team-control, occurs." If the profanity made the ball dead, then A1 couldn't have had a shot, and B1's foul never could have occurred. As such, I'd say that B1's foul came first, then B6's foul - no one would line up for the 4 FT's.

Until the NFHS clarifies this case, though, I do think it's a bit vague, and you could argue going either way. I, however, would administer the technical shots second. No way B is having a chance to get the ball back just because they committed another foul.

[RushmoreRef]

Doesn't the fact that A will be getting the ball back because of the technical make it obvious....Clear the lane for the shooting foul and technical and give the ball at midcourt to A.....If you did opposite then B would not be penalized for the T...sorry if this was mentioned already.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

First off, wouldn't this be a false multiple foul? A double foul requires each team to commit a foul. In this situation, both were committed by team B.

You're absolutely right.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Great question and you make a valid point.

However, I would have done the reverse. I would have penalized them in the order in which they were actually charged.

I would have cleared the lane and shot the 2FTs for the shooting foul by B1, then with the lane still empty, shot the 2FTs for the T on B6, then awarded Team A the ball at the division line opposite the table.

This is what I was saying and This is the only way that makes sense to me!!! Let me know if I'm wrong....

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

This is what I was saying and This is the only way that makes sense to me!!! Let me know if I'm wrong....

I see that you're trying to make sure that Team B is penalized by losing the ball, but the fact of the matter is, the rule book says you should administer the foul shots in the order in which they occurred. In this case, it all depend on whether you consider the foul to have occurred when the player said the words or when the whistle was blown.

[Scrapper1]

I'm tempted to say that it doesn't matter; because possession of the ball is part of the penalty for the technical foul. Shouldn't the offended team get the ball, regardless of how you shoot the free throws?