Stop Sign Not Considered Harmful

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No way? Are you sure about that? If you are working 3 man, you can go right to the coach and talk to them. If you are working 2 man, tell the coach, "I will be over there in a second, give me a chance" and they will have to hold their horses. If they do not, then you have options.

I'm talking about lead on a free throw. 2 man or 3 man, it isn't going to make a difference. I suppose I could have held off on the free throw and walked over for a discussion.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe you could choose a better set of words than "That's enough coach." This also sounds confrontational as well in my opinion.

You're right. I'm not happy with the way that went down, and that's the part I've been rethinking since then. Problem is, the ball was live and inbounds when he responded to my answer with, "That's terrible." I was right in front of him, but didn't find it appropriate to turn my back. A longer answer may have been appropriate, something more direct and detailed addressing his behavior.

[JRutledge]

The usage or non-usage of the stop sign should not be a prerequisite of using good communication skills and good mechanics which will sell more of your calls a lot more than a single gesture ever will.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I was standing right next to this coach and simply told him, “We are not going to yell at me all night about travel calls.” He started to yell at me again and I said, “We are not going to yell at me when I am talking to you.”

Had the same thing in a Girls regional play-off last year. Home coach was standing next to me yelling in my ear. I turned my head slightly towards him and said "You need to stop yelling in my ear!". He immediately walked away from me and nobody in the gym had any idea I said something to him. No reason to give him a visual stop sign for all to see in this situation.

[Adam]

Agreed. Also, the one time I used it this season, I felt weird. It felt more like a "talk to the hand" than anything else. I think the reason it "worked" had more to do with the fact that the coach had gotten the call he wanted, he just thought it should have come from me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm talking about lead on a free throw. 2 man or 3 man, it isn't going to make a difference. I suppose I could have held off on the free throw and walked over for a discussion.

Why are you talking to a coach from the lead position at all in a 3 person game? There is an official standing closer to a coach than you will ever be at the lead. If you do it right, the calling officials is the officials closest to the coach anyway. Now in 2 man, I am not talking a lot to a coach ever during that sequence. But I will establish this pretty early in my games.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're right. I'm not happy with the way that went down, and that's the part I've been rethinking since then. Problem is, the ball was live and inbounds when he responded to my answer with, "That's terrible." I was right in front of him, but didn't find it appropriate to turn my back. A longer answer may have been appropriate, something more direct and detailed addressing his behavior.

This is why you should mostly be talking to coaches during dead ball. I do not talk to coaches a lot during live ball as a regular practice. I tend to ignore them during those times. When there is a dead ball or there is after a timeout, I will make myself available if a coach has a legitimate question. I used to try to talk to coaches during live ball and the message hardly ever gets across when I am running by. Usually I will just tell the coach, "Wait until a dead ball and I will talk to you when I get a chance."

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by GarthB

There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.

I respectfully disagree...I am not a fan of the stop sign. I have used it only one time that I can remember this season, but at the time I used it, I wanted everyone in the gym - including the evaluator/observer sitting up in the top row - to know that the coach had gone too far and needed to cease and desist. Did he end up getting T'd - yes...but not by me. There are times when the stop sign sends the message to everyone in the gym that the coach needs to stop whatever it is he/she is doing...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Is there an argument for using the stop sign because that will show up on game tape? Since we are constantly on video, using visible means of commication can be useful - especially if the coach ends up being ejected and there is some reason to revisit the chain of events.

I have heard that issue discussed before. I do not necessarily agree that this solves all issues. You still will have to explain why you called a T. And unless you are in the picture on video, it might not be clear if you used the stop sign. I am not sure I would rely on the video tape to save my behind.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

...thanks for helping make my game better.

Mission accomplished!

Sometimes people refuse to see the truth even when someone (Rut) makes it plain. If this game management tool is so useful, why do most of the stories on this forum end up with a T anyway. Just like I've mentioned before about applying the stop sign to a normal conversation off the court, think about something in normal life you would do to prevent something else. If doing A repeatedly did NOT prevent B, would you continue to do A?
I can understand doing something that will show up on film. However, most things the coach does will be obvious so it doesn't matter anyway.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have heard that issue discussed before. I do not necessarily agree that this solves all issues. You still will have to explain why you called a T. And unless you are in the picture on video, it might not be clear if you used the stop sign. I am not sure I would rely on the video tape to save my behind.

Peace

GREAT point that I hope will not get overlooked by those viewing this thread!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I respectfully disagree...I am not a fan of the stop sign. I have used it only one time that I can remember this season, but at the time I used it, I wanted everyone in the gym - including the evaluator/observer sitting up in the top row - to know that the coach had gone too far and needed to cease and desist. Did he end up getting T'd - yes...but not by me. There are times when the stop sign sends the message to everyone in the gym that the coach needs to stop whatever it is he/she is doing...

Yup, it's just another tool that works in certain situations if it's used correctly. Experience and officiating acumen lets you know how and when to use it.

It can be used appropriately on players, assistant coaches, etc. too.

Never say never.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If this game management tool is so useful, why do most of the stories on this forum end up with a T anyway.

Perhaps because "I had this coach who was starting to get a little out of hand, but not enough to justify a T, so I gave him the old stop sign and he knocked it off" doesn't make much of a story. It kind of ranks up there with "I called the first handcheck and it cleaned up the guard play." Ho hum. Dog bites man. Good officiating, not much of a story.

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My opinion only:

There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.

Garth, I'd say you have to consider college ball when games are video taped (or even hs games w/ video taping) that don't have the audio capabilities to pick up your soft word to the coach. However, lets say a coach doesn't heed a warning and you have to give a tech a few plays later -- then at least on tape they have a visable sign that the coach was WARNED.

Of course, you don't always need to give a stop sign... some coaches just need a pleasant reminder to stay under control. But to say that there is nothing it can do is an overstatement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Garth, I'd say you have to consider college ball when games are video taped (or even hs games w/ video taping) that don't have the audio capabilities to pick up your soft word to the coach. However, lets say a coach doesn't heed a warning and you have to give a tech a few plays later -- then at least on tape they have a visable sign that the coach was WARNED.

Since you did not read my other post about this, then let me say this about your assumption. You are assuming that every aspect of a game is video taped. It clearly is not. I have multiple video taped games just from this year and there many times you cannot see the officials in during the game. You also cannot see many dead ball situations. So now you are relying on the tape to show something it might not display at all. So when there is a FT, you might not see where the Trail official is located and who they are talking to.

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Of course, you don't always need to give a stop sign... some coaches just need a pleasant reminder to stay under control. But to say that there is nothing it can do is an overstatement.

It is just as overstated to say it should be used or that it is not harmful (like the title of this thread). As I have said many times before, you cannot use what works for someone else and automatically translate that into your game. It also takes experience to know when to use something effectively. I just choose not to use a tool that can go one way or the other that is also very public.

Peace

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The usage or non-usage of the "stop sign" has never been an NFHS POE.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There's a card game I like to play that seems appropriate here. I call "Bull Sh!t." Show me where the NFHS has ever had a point of emphasis that even obliquely mentioned a "stop sign."

And you are right Snagwells, you are full of bull sh!t. Anywho, old chum, if you refer back to the NFHS POE Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05 page 6:

"HAD ENOUGH? STOP SIGN EM"
Conversation with a coach during a game is something that will always occur. Somtimes that exchange of information between a coach and official is conversational and sometimes it is not. When and where to draw the line is debatable and depends on many variables. When you're made the decision to let the coach know you've heard enough, let him or her know visually as well as verbally. While verbally informaing the coach enough is enough, give the coach the stop sign. By giving the coach warning verbally and visually, your physical actions will be on tape. If the coach crosses the proverbial line after that point, you'll be on the record as giving a warning to the coach.

Read it and weep. Now I know you and JR will probably switch this to mean something else like you did my 3 second interrupted dribble in the lane. But that's okay because I know what I'm going to call and do in both these situations.

[BillyMac]

From MJT: "BillyMac, do you type about 200 words/minute? You have some of the longest posts I have ever seen!"

MJT: I'm a terrible typer. On top of that I refuse to use the spell check offered by this Forum because I'm not very computer literate, I'm using Windows 98, I bet I'm one of the few Forum members to still use this 20th century operating system, and I'm afraid that I'll screw up something on my computer if I download a second spell check program. I actually use something called a dictionary, for our younger Forum members, this is a book with paper pages that contains a lot of correctly spelled words in alphabetical order, to check my spelling, again a 20th century technology. I'm always afraid that when I post I'll be "caught" by our "Annoying Spelling" Forum member.

I'm a member of my local association's training committee and I have maintained a virtual library of handouts, etc., regarding basketball rules, for the purpose of this committee, on my hard drive. I have also copied and pasted text from my previous posts, since the same questions seem to keep coming up as more new members join the Forum.

As a retired teacher, I'm now an analytical chemist, I guess that I can't stop teaching, whether it be as a member of my local association's training committee, or as a member of this Forum. After thirty-one years of teaching, I felt very confident teaching my science classes. Believe it or not, as a twenty-six year official, I feel less confident in my knowledge of basketball rules, which is why I often look to our more veteran Forum members for help and advice.

I hope that my posts don't bore too many Forum members. I'm just trying to give some of our younger Forum members some of the knowledge that I've gained over the past twenty-six years.