AP Arrow

[drinkeii]

Probably a simple question, but I'm having trouble finding the result.

Team A gets possession on a jump ball situation. They take the ball out of bounds, and while the player out of bounds has the ball, and while the official is counting their 5 seconds, B2 fouls A2 on the floor. We are not in the bonus. A1 gets the ball back out of bounds.

Question: Does the arrow change upon the final pass inbounds, or since the new inbounds pass is a result of a foul and not the AP arrow, do they keep the arrow?

Would this change if it resulted in foul shots? (I assume it would not change if there were foul shots, because there was no resulting in bounds pass).

[Ref in PA]

The subsequent throw-in after the foul is not an AP throw-in. The AP throw-in never completed because of the foul by B2 - therefore the AP arrow does not change. 6-5-5

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Probably a simple question, but I'm having trouble finding the result.

The AP arrow is changed when the AP throw-in ends or the inbounding team violates. Since neither of these happened in your play, the arrow doesn't change.

[drinkeii]

That's what I thought! Thanks!

[Big2Cat]

6.4.5 Situation A: Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation.
Ruling: B’s ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B’s basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

Comment: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

[DC_Ref12]

Great example of why it's important to have a properly-instructed table crew. A lot of times because I work in church leagues the folks operating the AP arrow don't know the rules and they switch it when the ball gets handed to the player doing the throw in, or they switch it just after you blow the whistle and make the call for a held ball. It gets frustrating.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Great example of why it's important to have a properly-instructed table crew. A lot of times because I work in church leagues the folks operating the AP arrow don't know the rules and they switch it when the ball gets handed to the player doing the throw in...

Okay, I can't help it and know I'm vastly out numbered here, but I think this is how the rule should read.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, I can't help it and know I'm vastly out numbered here, but I think this is how the rule should read.

and if A2 gets fouled by B2 they lose the arrow?

Can't agree with that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

and if A2 gets fouled by B2 they lose the arrow?

Can't agree with that.

I didn't expect you to; no one else does. It's my opinion that the team is entitled to a throwin, not possession. Once the thrower has been given the ball for the throwin, the arrow's job is done. Anything that happens during that throwin is a direct result of the arrow.
Let me put it another way. In your scenario; the foul to against A2 happened because A1 was trying to inbound the ball. If the arrow hadn't given the ball to A, then B2 wouldn't have fouled. The arrow did its job.
Again, I realize I'm outnumbered here.

[Big2Cat]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't expect you to; no one else does. It's my opinion that the team is entitled to a throwin, not possession. Once the thrower has been given the ball for the throwin, the arrow's job is done. Anything that happens during that throwin is a direct result of the arrow.
Let me put it another way. In your scenario; the foul to against A2 happened because A1 was trying to inbound the ball. If the arrow hadn't given the ball to A, then B2 wouldn't have fouled. The arrow did its job.
Again, I realize I'm outnumbered here.

Huh? I don't get it.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't expect you to; no one else does. It's my opinion that the team is entitled to a throwin, not possession. Once the thrower has been given the ball for the throwin, the arrow's job is done. Anything that happens during that throwin is a direct result of the arrow.
Let me put it another way. In your scenario; the foul to against A2 happened because A1 was trying to inbound the ball. If the arrow hadn't given the ball to A, then B2 wouldn't have fouled. The arrow did its job.
Again, I realize I'm outnumbered here.

An idiom here in Italy is "se mio nonno avesse le ruote sarebbe un tram" (if my grandpa had wheels, he would be a streetcar). Don't build up hypotheses: players play and sometimes foul. A throw in is just a play situation.

The arrow entitles the team to a throw in: they have the right to make it. When does a throw in end? There are very good reasons to say that it ends when another player touches the ball or the team violates. A foul is a very different thing.

Nobody is saying that the team has a right to possession: if the other team steals the throw in pass, the arrow gets reversed.

[Adam]

And if a frog had wings.... I know. The difference is that I'm not creating unlikely hypotheticals. Good grief.
I already said I expected disagreement. That's fine. This is just how I see it.

It seems arbitrary to me to reverse the arrow on an offensive violation but not on an offensive foul. To me, the arrow gives the thrower the ball; after that all bets should be off because the arrow did its job. You can't say your punishing the team that got fouled during the throwin because they're still getting the ball that the arrow provided.

This should go without saying, but I'm not out there enforcing it the way I think it should be; I'm enforcing it the way it is.

BTW, had a scorer in a middle school game not change the arrow because the pass was stolen. We corrected him.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's my opinion that the team is entitled to a throwin, not possession.

Then why is it called alternating POSSESSION?

Evenso, if the foul occurs, then they don;t get their throw-in, do they?

Changing the rule for the sake of making it easier isn't a reason.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Great example of why it's important to have a properly-instructed table crew. A lot of times because I work in church leagues the folks operating the AP arrow don't know the rules and they switch it when the ball gets handed to the player doing the throw in, or they switch it just after you blow the whistle and make the call for a held ball. It gets frustrating.

And unfortunately, in my area, officials seem unaware of NFHS rule 6-5-5, as 80% of the time, the arrow gets flipped after such a situation and it's not corrected

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Then why is it called alternating POSSESSION?

Evenso, if the foul occurs, then they don;t get their throw-in, do they?

Changing the rule for the sake of making it easier isn't a reason.

They had their throwin; it resulted in a foul.
You're right, it's not a reason. It's not my reason either.
But, I'm tilting at windmills.