Flipping over

[Splute]

Thanks for the distinction on typing the rule numbers.

So back to the case in hand.... nothing has been called yet, B1 reaches over A1 with one hand and in an attempt to get, at a minimum a held ball call, (best case, rip the ball away form A1) he makes contact when A1 pulls the ball away...... It is an unfavorable position for B1, I lean in favor of A1 and call the contact on B1. All of this happened in a second, can you really call held ball before the contact? My last thoughts... thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

All of this happened in a second, can you really call held ball before the contact?

If you think that it's a held ball, you call the held ball. What happens after the held ball is a completely different call to be made(or not made).

Don't overthink plays like these. Just make your call and get the ball back into play asap. If you're questioned, you simply say "Imo it was a held ball".

[Splute]

Good point,

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Splute

Thanks for the distinction on typing the rule numbers.

So back to the case in hand.... nothing has been called yet, B1 reaches over A1 with one hand and in an attempt to get, at a minimum a held ball call, (best case, rip the ball away form A1) he makes contact when A1 pulls the ball away...... It is an unfavorable position for B1, I lean in favor of A1 and call the contact on B1. All of this happened in a second, can you really call held ball before the contact? My last thoughts... thanks.

The only problem with that is that B1 did (edit) NOT cause the contact. B1's only action was to grab the ball without contact. A1, in trying to get it away from B1 pulled B1 onto A1. That is essentially undue roughness.

I've got no more than a held ball. Certainly not a foul on B1 for being pulled into A1.

[blindzebra]

This sounds more like a game of twister than basketball.

I am having a very difficult time picturing how a player can reach over a shoulder and get a hand under the basketball and have enough control over it to justify a held ball.

The way I read the held ball rule you have two ways of getting one:

1. By stopping a shot or pass...not the case here.

2. By having dual control of the ball where it will take undue force to gain sole control.

So #2 is the issue, and frankly I cannot see how a player behind, can get under the ball, have dual control...any control for that matter...to justify calling a held ball.

What I get from the OP is B1 got his arm pinned going for the ball, he couldn't control the ball with one hand and expect to pull it away from A1, in fact from the position B1 was in, I seriously doubt his palm was even on the ball...unless he was double jointed, and even then I have a hard time judging one hand equals two for dual control.

Without seeing it, I'm leaning for a foul on B1 and possibly a T on A1 for the judo move.

[Splute]

When I initially see this, my mind thinks in regard to rule 4-27-5: If however a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

I follow your perspective in the initial act of B1 reaching over without contact. I have no call there. B1 puts one hand under the ball. I still have no call at this time; neither held ball or pushing. But in my mind any subsequent contact due to B1's unfavorable position is still on him, not on A1 trying to maintian possession.

But as JR stated. If you see held ball first, call it. Nothing matters after that (except flying elbows, etc. etc.)

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

The way I read the held ball rule you have two ways of getting one:

1. By stopping a shot or pass...not the case here.

2. By having dual control of the ball where it will take undue force to gain sole control.

Isn't this only true for an airborne player who is shooting or passing?

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Splute

When I initially see this, my mind thinks in regard to rule 4-27-5: If however a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

I follow your perspective in the initial act of B1 reaching over without contact. I have no call there. B1 puts one hand under the ball. I still have no call at this time; neither held ball or pushing. But in my mind any subsequent contact due to B1's unfavorable position is still on him, not on A1 trying to maintian possession.

But as JR stated. If you see held ball first, call it. Nothing matters after that (except flying elbows, etc. etc.)

I'm presenting this under the assumption that B1 did NOT make contact with A1 while going for the ball. Therefore, they are both responsible for any contact made after that point.

NCAA 10.20.1 makes no distinction about having possession of the ball in initiating rough contact or bending unnaturally. To me, it's just as if A1 had grabbed B1 by the arm and judo flipped him to the ground. B1 had a legit play on the ball, and unncessary and rough contact was initiated by A1......T.

[cmathews]

Let's say rather than move the ball...A1 jumps do you still put the onus on A1 for initiating the contact?

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by Splute

When I initially see this, my mind thinks in regard to rule 4-27-5: If however a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

I follow your perspective in the initial act of B1 reaching over without contact. I have no call there. B1 puts one hand under the ball. I still have no call at this time; neither held ball or pushing. But in my mind any subsequent contact due to B1's unfavorable position is still on him, not on A1 trying to maintian possession.

But as JR stated. If you see held ball first, call it. Nothing matters after that (except flying elbows, etc. etc.)

I vote for this one.

[SmokeEater]

If A1 jumps I am likely calling for an ambulance because B will have a broken arm.

[Splute]

The one time I called Held Ball when a defender reached over the back was due to a much taller B1 grabbing the ball from A1, with both hands and no contact. Although it seems like A1 had the ball a little higher than his chest....

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

If A1 jumps I am likely calling for an ambulance because B will have a broken arm.

but does it change whether you call the foul on A or B or a jump?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Isn't this only true for an airborne player who is shooting or passing?

Airborne, but does it matter?

I did say it wasn't important to the play in question.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Airborne, but does it matter?

I did say it wasn't important to the play in question.

Not to the play in question, but it is important to newer officials who don't know it, in general.