Flipping over

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Particularly if its with one hand and the arm is between the ball and the body. How is this accomplished with out creating illegal contact?

Hold your arms out, shoulder height, in front of you. There is room for a player, especially if he is taller than you, to reach in and put a hand on the ball (ONE hand) without creating significant contact.

Then you, with the ball, lock his arm on your shoulder, bend over and flip him over. The ONLY contact B1 has initiated is ON THE BALL. I don't have the NFHS rule book handy, but 10.20.1 in the NCAA book says: A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his or her own body into other than a normal position; nor use any unreasonably rough tactics. This SCREAMS rough tactic to me. Also, it impedes the progress of B1 trying to make a defensive move on the ball.

[Splute]

[quote=BadNewsRef]Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

well maybe not as good as JR; he is always sharp on the rules

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

[QUOTE=Splute]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

well maybe not as good as JR; he is always sharp on the rules

Is that 2 hands or 4 hands?

By your post, you seem to imply 4 hands. We can have a held with 2, 3 or 4.

[Splute]

In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Splute

In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.

What is the justification for the way you read this?

Can you not see justification for a held ball with only one defensive hand on the ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.

It's not well worded by the FED. Each opponent could have only one hand on the ball and it can still be said that they have "their hands" on the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=Splute]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.

Contact occurring after the held ball is called may or may not be incidental, even though the contact might be severe. Judgment call whether it's a foul or not, but if you do call it, it has to be an intentional or flagrant technical foul, by rule and definition(R4-19-1NOTE&4-19-5c).

That's my take on it, News.

[Splute]

[quote=Jurassic Referee][quote=Splute]As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.


Jurassic I respectfully disagree that there is no difference. If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Splute

If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...

Your 2nd statement directly contradicts your 1st statement. One hand can be strong enough to cause a held ball. What if B1's one hand is used to hold the ball against A1's body while A1 has two hands on the ball.