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[QUOTE=Splute]
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By your post, you seem to imply 4 hands. We can have a held with 2, 3 or 4. |
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Then you, with the ball, lock his arm on your shoulder, bend over and flip him over. The ONLY contact B1 has initiated is ON THE BALL. I don't have the NFHS rule book handy, but 10.20.1 in the NCAA book says: A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his or her own body into other than a normal position; nor use any unreasonably rough tactics. This SCREAMS rough tactic to me. Also, it impedes the progress of B1 trying to make a defensive move on the ball. |
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[QUOTE=Splute]
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Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball A held ball occurs when: Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try. There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo. Contact occurring after the held ball is called may or may not be incidental, even though the contact might be severe. Judgment call whether it's a foul or not, but if you do call it, it has to be an intentional or flagrant technical foul, by rule and definition(R4-19-1NOTE&4-19-5c). That's my take on it, News. Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:31am. |
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In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.
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[quote=Jurassic Referee][quote=Splute]As Jurassic would say:
Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball A held ball occurs when: Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try. There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo. Jurassic I respectfully disagree that there is no difference. If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage. In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO... |
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Can you not see justification for a held ball with only one defensive hand on the ball? |
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Very thought provoking. That is why I enjoy these conversations. Perhaps I would be starting off wrong, but I think I would rule "pushing", 9 out of 10 times. In my limited mind it really depends on B1s position and I have to consider contact with him over the back. But as stated, if it CAN be a held ball and that was called before the pushing, it is done.
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__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Again a good perspective, but in my mind A1 has possession and position. B1 is taking a dangerous position reaching over A1. It would seem if A1 moved the ball to keep control & possession, then B1 would concurrently cause contact and a violation. So my question would be, at what point do you call the held ball? Is it the split second B1 puts his hand on the ball? I would think most officials tend to let the players attempt to gain control first before stating no one can gain control without undue force, a whistle a held ball.
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- If A1 is moving the ball after B1 put a hand on it, who is really causing the contact now? And...A1 might be able to move the ball, but could they pass, shoot or dribble the ball? - Don't get too hung up on contact. Read NFHS rule 4-27-2. - It's always a judgment call. You first have to judge whether it is a held ball or not. Then you have to judge whether the subsequent contact is incidental or not. |
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It's something you have to get a feel for. I still haven't perfected it. Ocassionally I will blow a held ball too early. I'm usually guilty of this if I feel the game is a little rough. Last night had a GV play-off game between arch rivals. We must have had at least 10 held balls.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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__________________
The officials lament, or the coaches excuses as it were: "I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you" |
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Btw, rules are denoted with a dash between them--i.e. Rule 4-27-5. If there are dots between the numbers, that refers to case book play--i.e. something like 4.25.2. |
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