The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Frisco (Dallas), Texas
Posts: 167
[QUOTE=Splute]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

well maybe not as good as JR; he is always sharp on the rules
Is that 2 hands or 4 hands?

By your post, you seem to imply 4 hands. We can have a held with 2, 3 or 4.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:20am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Particularly if its with one hand and the arm is between the ball and the body. How is this accomplished with out creating illegal contact?
Hold your arms out, shoulder height, in front of you. There is room for a player, especially if he is taller than you, to reach in and put a hand on the ball (ONE hand) without creating significant contact.

Then you, with the ball, lock his arm on your shoulder, bend over and flip him over. The ONLY contact B1 has initiated is ON THE BALL. I don't have the NFHS rule book handy, but 10.20.1 in the NCAA book says: A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his or her own body into other than a normal position; nor use any unreasonably rough tactics. This SCREAMS rough tactic to me. Also, it impedes the progress of B1 trying to make a defensive move on the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:25am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
[QUOTE=Splute]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Held ball.

As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art 1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.

Contact occurring after the held ball is called may or may not be incidental, even though the contact might be severe. Judgment call whether it's a foul or not, but if you do call it, it has to be an intentional or flagrant technical foul, by rule and definition(R4-19-1NOTE&4-19-5c).

That's my take on it, News.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:31am.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Deer Park, TX
Posts: 502
In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Deer Park, TX
Posts: 502
[quote=Jurassic Referee][quote=Splute]As Jurassic would say:

Rule 4 section 25 Held Ball
A held ball occurs when:
Art. 2: An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There should be no difference in the plays. In both, the defense stopped the offensive player from doing what he wanted to do. If the defender has a hand on the ball sufficient to tie up the offensive player, just call the held ball. That's the purpose and intent of the rule imo.


Jurassic I respectfully disagree that there is no difference. If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Frisco (Dallas), Texas
Posts: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.
What is the justification for the way you read this?

Can you not see justification for a held ball with only one defensive hand on the ball?
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:36am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
In the first situation of a held ball I read the rules as meaning A1 has two hands on the ball and B1 has two hands on the ball. Thus I read it to mean, two hands by A1 and 1 hand by B1 does not constitute a held ball. In the blocking of a shot, this is not the case.
It's not well worded by the FED. Each opponent could have only one hand on the ball and it can still be said that they have "their hands" on the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Deer Park, TX
Posts: 502
Very thought provoking. That is why I enjoy these conversations. Perhaps I would be starting off wrong, but I think I would rule "pushing", 9 out of 10 times. In my limited mind it really depends on B1s position and I have to consider contact with him over the back. But as stated, if it CAN be a held ball and that was called before the pushing, it is done.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:44am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
If B1 only has one hand on the ball, then B1 is not holding so firmly that control can not be obtained withour undue force. IMO it is not too difficult to pull the ball away from someone who only has one hand on it, and over your back with no leverage.

In situation two, it is a held ball because one hand can usually cause the shooter back to the floor or to loose the ball. IMO...
Your 2nd statement directly contradicts your 1st statement. One hand can be strong enough to cause a held ball. What if B1's one hand is used to hold the ball against A1's body while A1 has two hands on the ball.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 11:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Deer Park, TX
Posts: 502
Again a good perspective, but in my mind A1 has possession and position. B1 is taking a dangerous position reaching over A1. It would seem if A1 moved the ball to keep control & possession, then B1 would concurrently cause contact and a violation. So my question would be, at what point do you call the held ball? Is it the split second B1 puts his hand on the ball? I would think most officials tend to let the players attempt to gain control first before stating no one can gain control without undue force, a whistle a held ball.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 12:04pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
It would seem if A1 moved the ball to keep control & possession, then B1 would concurrently cause contact and a violation. So my question would be, at what point do you call the held ball?
Some points....

- If A1 is moving the ball after B1 put a hand on it, who is really causing the contact now? And...A1 might be able to move the ball, but could they pass, shoot or dribble the ball?
- Don't get too hung up on contact. Read NFHS rule 4-27-2.
- It's always a judgment call. You first have to judge whether it is a held ball or not. Then you have to judge whether the subsequent contact is incidental or not.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 12:06pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
Is it the split second B1 puts his hand on the ball? I would think most officials tend to let the players attempt to gain control first before stating no one can gain control without undue force, a whistle a held ball.
Definitely not the split second.

It's something you have to get a feel for. I still haven't perfected it. Ocassionally I will blow a held ball too early. I'm usually guilty of this if I feel the game is a little rough.

Last night had a GV play-off game between arch rivals. We must have had at least 10 held balls.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 12:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Deer Park, TX
Posts: 502
I agree it is judgment; all valid points. I looked up the rule you mentioned (4.27.2) but also read 4.27.5 which seems closer to this situation. Your thoughts on that Art.?
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 12:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Some points....

- If A1 is moving the ball after B1 put a hand on it, who is really causing the contact now? And...A1 might be able to move the ball, but could they pass, shoot or dribble the ball?
- Don't get too hung up on contact. Read NFHS rule 4-27-2.
- It's always a judgment call. You first have to judge whether it is a held ball or not. Then you have to judge whether the subsequent contact is incidental or not.
However also read NFHS rule 4-27-5. I agree with most of your points JR. If you deem it a held ball then the contact occurs, you go with the held ball. However I have a hard time believing that moving the ball causes undo roughness, and would be more inlcined to use 4-27-5, at least as I read the situation....
__________________
The officials lament, or the coaches excuses as it were: "I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you"
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 15, 2007, 12:17pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
I agree it is judgment; all valid points. I looked up the rule you mentioned (4.27.2) but also read 4.27.5 which seems closer to this situation. Your thoughts on that Art.?
4-27-5 isn't applicable because it refers to contact occurring before the held ball, not after.

Btw, rules are denoted with a dash between them--i.e. Rule 4-27-5. If there are dots between the numbers, that refers to case book play--i.e. something like 4.25.2.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Your Flipping Coin irefky Football 14 Tue Jun 06, 2006 04:41am
Catcher flipping mask? cas659 Softball 3 Sun Jun 12, 2005 05:39pm
flipping batting helmet off justmom Softball 12 Tue Apr 26, 2005 08:02pm
Flipping For Choice Before EACH Match FallCaller Wrestling 0 Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:20am
Tired of flipping pages...... justacoach Basketball 11 Fri Aug 01, 2003 08:08pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:34am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1