flipping batting helmet off

[justmom]

If a batter-runner or runner intentionally flips their batting helmet so far back that the helmet will inevitably fall off their head, are they in violation of any rules?

[whiskers_ump]

justmom,


Welcome to the board.

Yes, they would be violating Rule 3 Section 5 E. ASA Code.

Wearing the helmet improperly or removing the helmet during a live
ball play and judged by the umpire to be a deliberate act shall cause the
violator to be declared out immediately.

[debeau]

Just what I was going to quote Whiskers .
I get the feeling though justmom might be trying to get xtra outs for the helmet rule .
Here in NZ it is a favourite for runners to be called out for touching their helmets while running and then them comeing off ( These are player umps not proper blues )
First up the ump should instruct the batter to wear the helmet properly .
Next if it falls of while running I wouldnt call it out .
But if I saw it flipped off while running then we have an out .

[justmom]

Thanks for the replies. This was a high-school game in Michigan that my jr.-high daughter and I were watching. My daughter is the one who noticed that this seemed to be a habit with a few players. The players were pushing the helmets back while running...not just touching them, but actually making an obvious motion to flip them back. We weren't sure, since they weren't actually removing the helmet. But they did push it far enough back that the helmet fell off after the next step or two, and it sure looked to us like an attempt to get rid of the helmet. We thought there might be some "loophole" in the rules, since they weren't called at all on it by either umpire.

[chuck chopper]

Once called out, are other runners still "force outs", or tag situations..and I assume ball remains live.

[whiskers_ump]

Yes, all other actions take place.

[mcrowder]

Chuck, if the out was on the BR, there would be no force outs (as they could return to the base where they started). If the out was on, say, a runner on 2nd - the runner on 3rd would not be a force anymore (she could return to 3rd), but the runner on 1st would still be a force.

[WestMichBlue]

Not an out in H.S. ball!

NFHS rules call for a team warning then restriction for the next player that deliberately removes helmet.

Now that most teams have a full complement of helmets, and player often have their own, I seldom see helmets come off while running. But when it does happen, I don't see it and am left wondering afterward if the player deliberately knocked it off.

We are too close to runners to see their every action from beginning to end of run. But from the panoramic view of the grandstands it may be easy to see a deliberate removal.

JustMom: there is no loophole, but there also is no rule against the helmet coming off while running. It has to be a deliberate removal, and that has to be seen by the umpire. It is possible that the umpire may have issued a team warning and you would not have been aware of that. And it is possible that a helmet came off after the warning, but if the umpire could not determine a deliberate action he is not going to remove a player from the game.

BTW – Where in Michigan?

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Chuck, if the out was on the BR, there would be no force outs (as they could return to the base where they started). If the out was on, say, a runner on 2nd - the runner on 3rd would not be a force anymore (she could return to 3rd), but the runner on 1st would still be a force.

Not true for ASA. ASA 3-5-E says

...Calling a runner out for removing a helmet does not remove force play situations.

Regarding actually calling the player out, ASA goes on to say

Umpires should use discretion as to the intent of the rule concerning player safety.

IOW, if there is little or no likelihood of the player being hurt (e.g. on a over the fence batted ball), "no harm, no foul."

Since this was school ball, note what WMB said - not an OUT for this violation in NFHS.

[chuck chopper]

Perhaps I should start a new thread ?. I brought this up because more leagues are now wanting the BR to be out for throwing the bat, just like in the flipping the helmet rule. Calling BR out instantly but force outs remain, is an oddity. I am wondering if we need a "delayed-out" type of a mechanic.

[Dakota]

Just a guess, but I suspect this is due to players intentionally removing their helmets to protect the advance of the lead runners. Kind of like a sac bunt of sorts. So, ASA outlawed it by keeping the force in effect.

But, that's just me reading between the lines.

[JEL]

If FED, and others had the "chin strap rule" (as ASA does) it would make accidental falling/flying helmets rare, if non-existant.

[justmom]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Not an out in H.S. ball!

BTW – Where in Michigan?

WMB

WMB, it was Montcalm/Gratiot County area teams