My Partner Asked Me If I Was T Happy

[Ignats75]

Saturday Night I had a Freshman/JV Doubleheader (Boys). In the Freshman game, the Home VARSITY coach was sitting on the bench. (I am LEAD) In the second quarter, the Frosh Coach was adamantly asking for 3 seconds. I went over to explain why it wasn't called. Player was making an offensvie move to the basket (Double-Pumping) and DID take a shot that he missed, got his own rebound, made a couple more Double Pumps---yep missed the shot and then got his own rebound again....Again double pumped a couple of time and finally scored and drew the foul.

After reporting to the table I went over to the coach to explain what I had. He was very upset because his best player got charged with the foul. I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it. As I started to turn and move to the other side for the FTs, the Varsity coach started to pick the same argument. I began to bring out the dreaded stop sign when I realized that it wasn't the HC that was arguing but bench personnel. So I assessed a bench technical. No profanity. Just bench personnel arguing the same point after I already answered the HC. (It had started to get heated until I ended the first discussion)

My partner was approached by both the HC and the Varsity coach at the half, I overheard him say "I'll find out". So when we went to the locker room, he asked me what happened, and I explained the story just as I did here. He asked me if I was a little T happy. Now this is the third time we have worked together this year, and we are both some of the better JV level officials around and we work well together. I was taken aback by the question but gave him my reasoning why I didn't think so, since this was only my 3rd non-administrative T on a coach all year. (And the first with him as a partner)

Based on this explanation, does this sound to you like I was a little quick with the trigger?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Saturday Night I had a Freshman/JV Doubleheader (Boys). In the Freshman game, the Home VARSITY coach was sitting on the bench. (I am LEAD) In the second quarter, the Frosh Coach was adamantly asking for 3 seconds. I went over to explain why it wasn't called. Player was making an offensvie move to the basket (Double-Pumping) and DID take a shot that he missed, got his own rebound, made a couple more Double Pumps---yep missed the shot and then got his own rebound again....Again double pumped a couple of time and finally scored and drew the foul.

After reporting to the table I went over to the coach to explain what I had. He was very upset because his best player got charged with the foul. I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it. As I started to turn and move to the other side for the FTs, the Varsity coach started to pick the same argument. I began to bring out the dreaded stop sign when I realized that it wasn't the HC that was arguing but bench personnel. So I assessed a bench technical. No profanity. Just bench personnel arguing the same point after I already answered the HC. (It had started to get heated until I ended the first discussion)

My partner was approached by both the HC and the Varsity coach at the half, I overheard him say "I'll find out". So when we went to the locker room, he asked me what happened, and I explained the story just as I did here. He asked me if I was a little T happy. Now this is the third time we have worked together this year, and we are both some of the better JV level officials around and we work well together. I was taken aback by the question but gave him my reasoning why I didn't think so, since this was only my 3rd non-administrative T on a coach all year. (And the first with him as a partner)

Based on this explanation, does this sound to you like I was a little quick with the trigger?

Find another partner -- one with his lips not planted on the V coach's backside.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Based on this explanation, does this sound to you like I was a little quick with the trigger?

Different areas have different expectations of behavior. To answer your question, you need to determine how a respected Varsity official would have dealt with the situation had the Varsity coach started the discussion and the assistant finished it (in a Varsity game).

[Junker]

I'm just nit-picking here, but did the coach ask you a direct question to cause you to go give him an explanation? If he's just complaining don't go to him, it will only lead to problems. If they have a legitimate question, head on over. I had the bad habit of initiating conversations with coaches early in my career. You're going to bring on more problems than you are going to solve if you are the one initiating the interaction.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by Junker

I'm just nit-picking here, but did the coach ask you a direct question to cause you to go give him an explanation? If he's just complaining don't go to him, it will only lead to problems. If they have a legitimate question, head on over. I had the bad habit of initiating conversations with coaches early in my career. You're going to bring on more problems than you are going to solve if you are the one initiating the interaction.

I was basically in front of his bench as I was reporting the foul to the table. He asked me point blank why I didn't call three seconds. A valid question on its own, despite this situation. I went to answer him for three reasons:

1. He asked a direct question about the reason for a call or non-call. Game Management dictates that I at least answer a direct question from a coach about a specific call.
2. If I ignore that same question, he will take a more antagonistic view of me because he would feel that I disrespected him. (and he would have a case)
3. He will continue to whine about three seconds which will annoy us to the point of whacking him anyway .

[Dan_ref]

Coach: "WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 3 SECONDS??!"
You: "Because he didn't violate the rule"

Then walk away.

[Ignats75]

Coach: "WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 3 SECONDS??!"
You: "Because he didn't violate the rule"

Then walk away.

Not bad. A little too flip and smarta$$y for me, but not bad.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Coach: "WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 3 SECONDS??!"
You: "Because he didn't violate the rule"

Then walk away.

Great answer Dan.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Coach: "WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 3 SECONDS??!"
You: "Because he didn't violate the rule"

Then walk away.

Much as in the "stop sign" debate, that answer might work for some, but I would never use it. I prefer a "5 words or less" rules answer --"Starts over on a try" or "not while he's shooting".

Tells the coach that you saw the player in the lane, that you were counting, but there's a specific reason not to call the violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

After reporting to the table I went over to the coach to explain what I had. He was very upset because his best player got charged with the foul. I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it.


Based on this explanation, does this sound to you like I was a little quick with the trigger?

Nope, the technical foul was deserved. But.......

You went over to the coach because you did want to debate it. Unfortunately, no amount of debate will ever change a coach's mind in a situation like this. Your "debate" is like waving a red flag in his face. You'd be much better off to just make the call and then turn away and let him mutter to himself. If he goes too far, that's when you have to get get into a warning.

Ignats, silence will never get you into real trouble out there. Jmo.

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it.

I agree that you should not have (and apparently did not) debate the rule with the coach or his bench, but we should debate it here, no? I don't agree with your interpretation of the rule. If a player is in the lane and pump faking for a long time (for example, more than 3 seconds), isn't that, by rule, a violation?

I certainly agree that if a player has been in the lane for a couple of seconds and looks like she or he is making an offensive move, I'm not looking to nit-pick the three seconds, but I just disagree that the proper rule interpretation is that officials HAVE to suspend the three second count when a player is faking attempts.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

After reporting to the table I went over to the coach to explain what I had. He was very upset because his best player got charged with the foul. I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it. As I started to turn and move to the other side for the FTs, the Varsity coach started to pick the same argument. I began to bring out the dreaded stop sign when I realized that it wasn't the HC that was arguing but bench personnel. So I assessed a bench technical. No profanity. Just bench personnel arguing the same point after I already answered the HC. (It had started to get heated until I ended the first discussion)

Based on this explanation, does this sound to you like I was a little quick with the trigger?

Absolutely not! It ended the debate didn't it! Mission accomplished, and now seat-belt the Freshman coach. I like the no nonsense technical, I'm starting to lean this way myself because you don't show any emotion. You just out the clear blue, WHACK! for argueing with me, or technically, constant complaining. Another reason I like this technical is because I'm not debating 3-sec calls with anybody. If you don't check this right away, you will be hearing it the rest of the game, and it gets louder and louder.

I do have a weapon, I won't call it a secret weapon but it's something that works 90% of the time and I don't have to give a T, especially with calls like this. Feel free to use it. I grab my whistle and I look at the complaining coach and I'll say; "do you want to ref this game today?" "Tell you what, you ref the game and I'll sit down and coach." Most of the time the coaches will settle down and let me do my job, and it is my job to determine what is a 3-sec violation today, not theirs and I really don't care how you feel about it.

I'm not so sure I agree with your explanation about suspending the 3 second count based on the player pumping and headfaking. I don't think I would tell a coach that either. The count can get suspended if there's an interrupted dribble or player loses control of the ball. We do give the player a chance to score but it is possible to pick up a 3-sec violation, standing there headfaking. It's rarely called but it can happen.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

The count can get suspended if there's an interrupted dribble or player loses control of the ball.

Nope, the count does not get suspended, by rule, during loss of player control. As long as team control remains, the count continues. Feel free to ask a real official in your area; you know, the guys in stripes who have actually read the rule book.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nope, the count does not get suspended, by rule, during loss of player control. As long as team control remains, the count continues. Feel free to ask a real official in your area; you know, the guys in stripes who have actually read the rule book.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nope, the count does not get suspended, by rule, during loss of player control. As long as team control remains, the count continues. Feel free to ask a real official in your area; you know, the guys in stripes who have actually read the rule book.

Disagree, there is no team control during a loss or interrupted dribble. If players are scrapping for the ball, I'm not going to blow my whistle 3 seconds in the lane and he or a member of the offense doesn't have control of the ball.