My Partner Asked Me If I Was T Happy

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I would give two shot if you were fouled on a pump fake.

You would be wrong, as others have stated. If it's a "fake", then it ain't a "shot".

[Ignats75]

I'm not sure. The definition of a try says that it starts when the shooter "begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the bal" It does not say the try begins with the LAST motion before the release of the ball. Might be worth asking the assignor of one of my conferences who is also one of the rules interpretors for the OHSAA. If I can find him under all this snow!

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I'm not sure. The definition of a try says that it starts when the shooter "begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the bal" It does not say the try begins with the LAST motion before the release of the ball. Might be worth asking the assignor of one of my conferences who is also one of the rules interpretors for the OHSAA. If I can find him under all this snow!

The rule does NOT say that a try starts when the shooter begins a FAKE motion of what would habitually precede the release of the ball.

If you KNOW it's a fake, by definition, it can't be a try, because you have definite knowledge he's not taking a shot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I'm not sure. The definition of a try says that it starts when the shooter "begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the bal" It does not say the try begins with the LAST motion before the release of the ball. Might be worth asking the assignor of one of my conferences who is also one of the rules interpretors for the OHSAA. If I can find him under all this snow!

If your logic were correct, then a player dribbling from one end of the court to the other with only five seconds remaining and attempting a try would have started his try with the first movement that he made in the backcourt because due to the time left he was going for the basket.

It means the movement that begins the actual try. The one where the ball is released on the attempt to throw it into the goal. It does not include previous fakes anymore than it includes previous dribbles. Please notice that the rule says "release of the ball."

[Nevadaref]

An even better way of looking at this is, does one NEED to make a fake in order to release the ball on a try?

Of course not. The movement that the rule is talking about is the necessary movement that one must do to shoot such as bring the ball up or turning the body towards the basket. Pivoting is included.

[JoeTheRef]

If it's a pump "fake", how do you know the shooter's intent when he was fouled? If he's fouled at the start of the pump or at the top who's to say he did not intend to follow through on "THAT" attempt? The "PumP" is another definition of starting a try or faking a try, but again, who's to say when he got fouled, whether at the beginning of "that" pump or the end that he wasn't going to continue. In my opinion, each pump is a start of a try, and if gets fouled his intent was a "try".

I also agree with whoever said "A VERBAL WARNING TO THE HEAD COACH TO CONTROL HIS BENCH" wouldn't have hurt as much as popping him with "T" on the first infraction.

[Ignats75]

Not true.

A try begins when a player brings the ball up to his hands and begins to perform a jump shot or layup. (I was going to say something about jumping, but then the image of Zadrunas Ilgauskas came into my mind ) Dribbling the ball is not part of the motion habitually used to shoot. The motion for a pump fake IS the same motion as habitually used...thats what makes it a fake. But a pump fake fits the definition of a try. Can you apply retroactive logic to something to determine if it applies? Do you blow your whistle when you see a foul, but wait to see what happens before you determine the type of foul? The evidence must be concurrent. The issue is whether a pump fake is part of a shot and what is the difference between a pump fake foul and a foul where the player never releases the ball because he heard the whistle.

No one would ever imply that dribbling was part of a shot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

The "PumP" is another definition of starting a try or faking a try, but again, who's to say when he got fouled, whether at the beginning of "that" pump or the end that he wasn't going to continue. In my opinion, each pump is a start of a try, and if gets fouled his intent was a "try".

That statement makes no sense either. The "pump" is not part of "any" definition of starting a try that I've ever seen or been aware of. If you think that is a definition, then find a rule somewhere and cite it. You can start a try or you can fake a try. They're two completely different things. The rule book differentiates between them also. A foul after a try is started is is a foul in the act of shooting. A foul while faking a try is foul before the act of shooting has begun.

Your "opinion" is not backed up either by anything in the rule or case book, or by the way the play is usually taught to be called either. I'd run your opinion by your local rules interpreter if I were you, Joe.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Not true.

A try begins when a player brings the ball up to his hands and begins to perform a jump shot or layup.

Yup, and if the player DOESN'T perform a jump shot or layup, and a defender did not stop that player from performing a jump shot or layup, then you DON'T have a try. It's that simple.

[JoeTheRef]

Again, picture the act of the "pump", especially in the lane. Can that not be seen as the start of the try?

A1 pumps, B1 jumps to A1's pump fake, B1 comes down on A1 while A1 starts his "pump" again, but his feet never got up off the ground. Are we giving A1 2 shots? He darn sure wasn't going to pump fake B1 again was he? Like I said in my previous post, how do we know that A1 or the player pumping wasn't intending on shooting at that time of the foul? Especially while the player is in the lane or under the basket? Because in the initial post, that was the case (3-seconds or not)).

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and if the player DOESN'T perform a jump shot or layup, and a defender did not stop that player from performing a jump stop or layup, then you DON'T have a try. It's that simple.

I am assuming you meant "jump shot" not jump stop. When you say perform, do you mean complete? Because he doesn't have to complete a jump shot or a layup, he doesn't even have to release the ball to be in the act of shooting or try.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I'm not sure. The definition of a try says that it starts when the shooter "begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the bal" It does not say the try begins with the LAST motion before the release of the ball. Might be worth asking the assignor of one of my conferences who is also one of the rules interpretors for the OHSAA. If I can find him under all this snow!

Sooo...still feeling comfortable with the simple-easy-to-understand explanation of the 3 second rule you gave the coach?

(cheap shot I know, but I couldn't stop myself )

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Again, picture the act of the "pump", especially in the lane. Can that not be seen as the start of the try?

A1 pumps, B1 jumps to A1's pump fake, B1 comes down on A1 while A1 starts his "pump" again, but his feet never got up off the ground. Are we giving A1 2 shots? He darn sure wasn't going to pump fake B1 again was he? Like I said in my previous post, how do we know that A1 or the player pumping wasn't intending on shooting at that time of the foul? Especially while the player is in the lane or under the basket? Because in the initial post, that was the case (3-seconds or not)).

The second time that this player makes a move to come up is the start of his try. The first was a fake. If the contact occurs before he starts his second upward motion, then I am not awarding him FTs for being in the act of shooting.

There are no FTs for being in the act of faking!

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and if the player DOESN'T perform a jump shot or layup, and a defender did not stop that player from performing a jump stop or layup, then you DON'T have a try. It's that simple.

You're correct. I mis-read the post. Sorry for the quick response before reading the reaponse.

[Ignats75]

LOL

At my age, my short term memory goes. Lets see if I can remember verbatim what I said to him.......

"Coach the count suspends when the player starts his move to the basket, and resets after the shot." He answered with some nonsense and I interrupted him with, "Coach I'm not here for a debate." and I turned away....thats when the VHC got the whack.

Seriously though, do you really think there is anything wrong with what I said? Not that I am going to change my style...but I always am curious about how others would handle the same situation. As a referee, I always like to see how others handle things.