The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 10:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
...so you decided to debate the intricacies of the rule with the coach anyway.

That worked out well, didn't it?

Here's some advice, you can take or leave:

Keep explanations as short and simple as possible except for unusual situations. A no call on a 3 second violation is hardly unusual.
This is very good advice. I had to learn this lesson the hard way.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 10:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Coach: "WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 3 SECONDS??!"
You: "Because he didn't violate the rule"

Then walk away.
Much as in the "stop sign" debate, that answer might work for some, but I would never use it. I prefer a "5 words or less" rules answer --"Starts over on a try" or "not while he's shooting".

Tells the coach that you saw the player in the lane, that you were counting, but there's a specific reason not to call the violation.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 11:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it.
I agree that you should not have (and apparently did not) debate the rule with the coach or his bench, but we should debate it here, no? I don't agree with your interpretation of the rule. If a player is in the lane and pump faking for a long time (for example, more than 3 seconds), isn't that, by rule, a violation?

I certainly agree that if a player has been in the lane for a couple of seconds and looks like she or he is making an offensive move, I'm not looking to nit-pick the three seconds, but I just disagree that the proper rule interpretation is that officials HAVE to suspend the three second count when a player is faking attempts.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 11:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Much as in the "stop sign" debate, that answer might work for some, but I would never use it. I prefer a "5 words or less" rules answer --"Starts over on a try" or "not while he's shooting".

Tells the coach that you saw the player in the lane, that you were counting, but there's a specific reason not to call the violation.
Disagree, especially at this level, with this call.

The coach isn't interested in learning anything new about the 3 second rule. He's PO'ed because he thinks you screwed him. Frankly I wouldn't even honor this complaint with *any* answer, it's so silly. IMO telling him why you didn't make the call for this particular situation opens you up to criticism when he thinks you're contradicting yourself later. Or even worse he'll disagree with your explanation as happened to Ignats.

Anyway, this dead horse isn't worth beating. Ignats gave his explanation to the coach and still ended up T'ing the assistant. Good T in any event.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 11:06am
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Dan,

I think you are jumping to a conclusion. Here's a synopsis of what happened.
  1. I answered it with one sentence.
There never was a debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it.
That seems to be more than one sentence. I think you have been given two approaches, Dan's and Bob's. I think one of the two would work if the coach asks a question. Of course, if the coach isn't asking the question calmly I would start by saying, "Coach, please don't yell at me anymore tonight."
__________________
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 07:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it.


Does anyone else believe that that is incorrect?
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2007, 07:52pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
I told him that as long as the player is making an offensive move, the three second count SUSPENDS and that double pumping is part of the attempt to shoot. He argued it a little bit, so I told him that was the rule and that I am not here to debate it.


Does anyone else believe that that is incorrect?
As someone who's called 2 3-second violations in 3 years, I'd say it's close enough.

Have to say I'm with Dan on this one. The intracacies of the 3-second rule are impossible to explain without sounding like a moron to the coach, so why bother?

Last edited by Rich; Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:54pm.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 08:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 718
Rule 4 Section 41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP

Quote:
Art 1...The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

Art 2...A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket. A player is trying for a goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgement (italic's mine) is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

Art 3...The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball

Art 4...The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain that the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.
Art 5-8 has to do with taps and is not germain to this discussion.

Art 3 seems to include the pump fakes.
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 08:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
Art 3...The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball

Art 3 seems to include the pump fakes.
If I pump fake and then pass to my teammate, did I start and end a try for goal?

If I am fouled during this action, do I get two FTs?

Just wait till JR shows up.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 08:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 718
I would give two shot if you were fouled on a pump fake. If you were to pump fake and then pass, I would probably call 3 seconds on you. Again, Art 3 of the definition of a try is the start of a shot. You can go up with a picture perfect jump shot and pass out of it at the top of your jump. Its still a try until you change it into a pass attempt.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 09:07am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
I would give two shot if you were fouled on a pump fake.
I wouldn't. The shooter has not started a try. That foul is on the floor.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 09:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
I would give two shot if you were fouled on a pump fake. If you were to pump fake and then pass, I would probably call 3 seconds on you. Again, Art 3 of the definition of a try is the start of a shot. You can go up with a picture perfect jump shot and pass out of it at the top of your jump. Its still a try until you change it into a pass attempt.
If, in your judgement, it's a pump fake, why would you award FTs? The name implies that it's not a shot - it's a FAKE.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 09:13am
PYRef
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I guess this would be one of those situations where you had to be there to witness the action. If it was clearly a pump fake, then I would probably go with it on the floor. But if the foul was enough to possibly cause the shooter to withhold the shot, that might be a different story. It would be hard for me to say that it would definitely be one or the other and call it that way every time.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 09:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops
The first complaining I hear in OUR direction from non-head coaches is a warning. The next time I give the T. The easiest thing for me to do is IGNORE them. I have no problem with your T. However, next time give the bench the STOP sign, ask the coach to control his bench, and IGNORE until you need to WHACK!!!
You and deecee need to get together and share your ideas on bench decorum. Ignoring the poor behavior may be the easiest thing to do, but it is not the best.

It is also a poor policy to always give a warning for the first complaining from the asst. coaches. The word with quickly get around amongst your local coaches that you never T the first complaint, so they will know that they get a free one.

Now go PM tomegun and tell him that you recommended the stop sign.

BTW what is the difference in the penalty between ignoring the coach and giving him the stop sign?
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 13, 2007, 09:54am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRef
But if the foul was enough to possibly cause the shooter to withhold the shot, that might be a different story.
That makes no sense at all. If it causes the shooter to withhold the shot, the shooter then never shot. The foul would obviously have to be before the shot. And if the shooter never shot, you can't have a foul "in the act of shooting".

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 09:57am.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Asked for help on this play. nickrego Baseball 11 Tue Jul 18, 2006 02:05pm
can you believe coach asked me this Ref-X Basketball 25 Thu Feb 23, 2006 05:44pm
Probably, Already Been Asked? Time2Ref Basketball 4 Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:34pm
Happy Channukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Jimgolf Basketball 3 Sun Dec 25, 2005 05:00pm
He asked for it! sir_eldren Hockey 10 Fri Jun 04, 2004 06:44am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1