Foul on Shooter then PC

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

A1 drives to the hoop and is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. During the action B2 had set up before A1 was airborne in the path of the shooter and was subsequently ran into by A1.

Do we have a false double foul here and how is it administered?

My thoughts are we:

1) Report both fouls on A1 and B1
2) A1 does not get to shoot because of the charge and
3) B ball out of bounds (or do we go arrow)

False double. No basket, award 2 shots (or 3 in the very odd case of behind the arc).

1. Yes.
2. A1 was fouled shooting. S/he gets 2 shots.
3. See JR's response.

A's PC foul merely means that s/he cannot score a basket on the play.

Unlike Rut's bad advice, call it is that is what it is! If A1 is pushed into B1, don't call the PC, but if there's a hack on the arm while A1 is going up, and A1 charges right into B1, you should call it. I've had this happen once. Totally the correct call. Don't be afraid to have the nuts to call this!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Unlike Rut's bad advice, call it is that is what it is! If A1 is pushed into B1, don't call the PC, but if there's a hack on the arm while A1 is going up, and A1 charges right into B1, you should call it. I've had this happen once. Totally the correct call. Don't be afraid to have the nuts to call this!

It is not about having nuts. It is about calling what is right. If you call that and you mess up any part of that application, you will cause more problems for yourself. To me that is being too technical. Now maybe in Canada they like being technical, but I have never, never, never seen that called in any game I have watched or officiated. And if you call it, the coach is going to call the assignor to make sure you got it right and they there will be a debate if you even needed to call a PC foul. One play is going to create for you a lot of scrutiny over what would which are already tough calls.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not about having nuts. It is about calling what is right. If you call that and you mess up any part of that application, you will cause more problems for yourself. To me that is being too technical. Now maybe in Canada they like being technical, but I have never, never, never seen that called in any game I have watched or officiated. And if you call it, the coach is going to call the assignor to make sure you got it right and they there will be a debate if you even needed to call a PC foul. One play is going to create for you a lot of scrutiny over what would which are already tough calls.

Peace

Canada is no different that the US in terms of being technical. We will agree to disagree.

Question: A1 in the act, gets hacked and after the foul, travels, shoots, and the ball goes in. Whatcha got? Did one of those acts cause the other?

Edit: Like I said, I've called it once. Was about 5 years ago. I don't recall seeing it before then, and certainly have not seen a situation to call it again - or even closely. It's rare, but A1 still can't bowl over B1.

So what calls are you talking about that are tough? Is a PC a tough call for you? A shooting foul?

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Canada is no different that the US in terms of being technical. We will agree to disagree.

Question: A1 in the act, gets hacked and after the foul, travels, shoots, and the ball goes in. Whatcha got? Did one of those acts cause the other?

Edit: Like I said, I've called it once. Was about 5 years ago. I don't recall seeing it before then, and certainly have not seen a situation to call it again - or even closely. It's rare, but A1 still can't bowl over B1.

So what calls are you talking about that are tough? Is a PC a tough call for you? A shooting foul?

Am I missing something here? If A1 gets fouled, I've got a foul - if the contact occurred before the travelling. What else could you call?

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Question: A1 in the act, gets hacked and after the foul, travels, shoots, and the ball goes in. Whatcha got? Did one of those acts cause the other?

If the foul caused the travel. No Basket. The player started his habitual motion to shoot so we are shooting 2 free throws.

If the foul did not cause the travel then I could see a non shooting foul being called. You can't have a try if you travel, correct?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the foul did not cause the travel then I could see a non shooting foul being called. You can't have a try if you travel, correct?

Incorrect. Whether one act caused another has no relevance to the final call. If a player is fouled in the act of shooting, then it's a shooting foul. Nothing can change that, be it a subsequent PC foul or a travel by the shooter. The shooter will still get his 2 or 3 FT's that are coming to him for the foul. All the PC or travel will do is wipe out the shot if it does happen to go.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Canada is no different that the US in terms of being technical. We will agree to disagree.

Question: A1 in the act, gets hacked and after the foul, travels, shoots, and the ball goes in. Whatcha got? Did one of those acts cause the other?

Edit: Like I said, I've called it once. Was about 5 years ago. I don't recall seeing it before then, and certainly have not seen a situation to call it again - or even closely. It's rare, but A1 still can't bowl over B1.

So what calls are you talking about that are tough? Is a PC a tough call for you? A shooting foul?

I think eg-Italy said it best. You have a foul on the shooter who is knocked off balance and now you are going to penalize them for getting fouled? Now if you want to make that call go right ahead. I have never made that call and plan to never make that call ever. Calling a PC foul is something someone can understand. Calling a shooting foul is something someone can understand. Calling a foul on a shooter that was fouled and likely knocked off balance is asinine. So you are telling me we should call a foul on a shooter that was pushed from behind and into a defender that was in LGP? Go right ahead and make that call.

I had a game this year where we called a simultaneous foul and we spent more time trying to justify this call then we spent enforcing it. Both coaches wanted an explanation and if it was not for me we would have not enforced it right. I had a shooting foul with the ball going in and my partner had an off ball foul. I tried to talk him into either passing on the foul because everyone saw my shooter get creamed to the floor. Hardly anyone saw his foul. I went along with the call because we did blow our whistle at the same time and that is what the rules say. Never again.

Peace

[Texas Aggie]

Usually in a situation like this, it isn't a matter of one official making the call, its a matter of two officials calling the two separate fouls. I've encountered this play a couple of times, and both times, that was what happened. Ironically, I called both the "front" and "back" ends of the play the two times (i.e., first I had the shooting foul, and second, I had the PC).

We got together and decided that the rules called for the false double foul, so that's how we enforced it. Just didn't use that term. In the second play I had, it was a boys varsity game with playoff implications. I told both coaches what we had, and both said, "OK."

I don't know if I would make both foul calls on my own, but I wouldn't run away from the call if its the correct call. This is different from a multiple foul. A multiple foul, in my view, is for that once or twice a career situation where that sort of penalty is appropriate -- say a blowout and the losing team is trying to goon things up.

[Raymond]

JRut is right on this one. In the real world you are only going to have one foul, the one on B1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

JRut is right on this one. In the real world you are only going to have one foul, the one on B1.

Interesting.

If B1 reaches in and just gets A1 on the shooting elbow on the way up and doesn't change A1's path in any way, and A1 then charges into B2 who had LGP all the way and knocks B2 into the second row, you're not going to call the charge?

Juggling Referee said in his original post that you shouldn't call a PC if B1's foul changed A1's path so that he charges into B2, but then he talked about the play above....where the foul by B1 didn't affect A1's original path in any way.

[sharkref]

Call the foul on the shooter.............ignore any foul after this unless it is intentional or flagrant.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sharkref

Call the foul on the shooter.............ignore any foul after this unless it is intentional or flagrant.

What does intentional or flagrant really have to do with it if the ball is still live?

Am I reading you right? You're saying that the airborne shooter can run over a defender with LGP? Knock the defender down and put them into the third row? Under all circumstances? And you'd ignore that?

If so, I disagree.