Should I have done anything different?

[Lotto]

Girls V, 2 man mechanics. We use NCAA rules with a few modifications. I'm R working trail in the first half. Home player A1 takes a 3 point shot from near the gray area. I go up with 3 fingers and watch for contact on the shooter. The ball comes down looking as though it didn't hit anything. A second or two later, the home coach is yelling that the ball went in. I replay the shot in my head and realize that she's probably right. I blow my whistle and go and look at the basket---sure enough there's a hole in the back left where the ball could have gone through. At this point, I'm 95% sure that the ball went in. I ask my partner, and he (being a good official) didn't see anything from his spot, since he was watching rebounders. I go to the table and ask timers (we have a shot clock in NY girls) and scorer---all agree that the ball went in. I count the basket.

Needless to say, visitor coach isn't happy. He doesn't think that the table should be involved in any way with this decision. I explain to him that they are part of the officiating team, etc. He talks to my partner, but I intervene saying that this was my call and my decision and that we're moving on. He asks that the scorer write in the book that he's playing the game under protest. I inform him that there is no such thing as a protest in basketball and get the game going again. Visiting coach doesn't say anything to us about this (or anything else---he's one of the most reasonable coaches in my area) for the rest of the 2nd quarter

My partner tells me that the visiting captain said that the ball had gone in and he asked her to tell her coach.

After the half, we come out and I see the visiting coach talking to the table about the play. I have to drop the key to the locker room off at the table anyway, so I figure this is a good time to explain what my reasoning was to him. (NY is emphasizing communication with coaches and since this particular coach is a very reasonable guy, so I knew that I wasn't inviting a disaster here.) I go over the same points, admit that I had made an initial mistake, but said that I was 100% sure that the ball had gone in and that we had gotten the call right, which was the important thing. He still insisted that the table should not have been involved, but that the call should have been made on the floor by the two officials. We didn't get to any sort of agreement, so after a minute or so I went across the floor to my spot. No trouble in the 2nd half at all.

Should I have done anything different?

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by Lotto

After the half, we come out and I see the visiting coach talking to the table about the play. I have to drop the key to the locker room off at the table anyway, so I figure this is a good time to explain what my reasoning was to him. (NY is emphasizing communication with coaches and since this particular coach is a very reasonable guy, so I knew that I wasn't inviting a disaster here.) I go over the same points, admit that I had made an initial mistake, but said that I was 100% sure that the ball had gone in and that we had gotten the call right, which was the important thing. He still insisted that the table should not have been involved, but that the call should have been made on the floor by the two officials. We didn't get to any sort of agreement, so after a minute or so I went across the floor to my spot. No trouble in the 2nd half at all.

Should I have done anything different?

What I would have done differently is avoided that conversation with the coach. You admitted yourself that you had nothing new to tell him, you were just rehashing. It's not your job to convince him that you were right to include the table in your discussion.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

What I would have done differently is avoided that conversation with the coach. You admitted yourself that you had nothing new to tell him, you were just rehashing. It's not your job to convince him that you were right to include the table in your discussion.

Good point.

I thought I did have two things to add, which were that the decision to count the basket was mine and not the table's, and that the call was correct and that that's what mattered. But maybe those are too fine points to warrant a conversation as you say.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

What I would have done differently is avoided that conversation with the coach. You admitted yourself that you had nothing new to tell him, you were just rehashing. It's not your job to convince him that you were right to include the table in your discussion.

I think that you had to go over there to see what was going on. The coach shouldn't have been at the table. If he was there for some other reason ("My starters will start teh second half") then you can just drop off the key and leave. If he's there about the play, then you need to "protect" the table crew.

[Ron Giacoma]

I would suggest a step down (toward the basket) on all field goal attempts. This is something I learned to do at our officiating camps. We sometimes think we are doing all the right things until the video tape is analyzed and we can see ourselves (not stepping down). It becomes much easier to see the action at the basket and all around it when getting closer from the Trail position. My "old" habit was to start going the other way.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Ron Giacoma

I would suggest a step down (toward the basket) on all field goal attempts. This is something I learned to do at our officiating camps. We sometimes think we are doing all the right things until the video tape is analyzed and we can see ourselves (not stepping down). It becomes much easier to see the action at the basket and all around it when getting closer from the Trail position. My "old" habit was to start going the other way.

Yes and no...yes it's a good thing to do, but no it would not have helped in this situation because closer means a tighter view, especially in a girls game since the focus isn't at the rim, so it would actually be harder to watch rebound action and see the basket from a closer spot.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Lotto

Girls V, 2 man mechanics. We use NCAA rules with a few modifications. I'm R working trail in the first half. Home player A1 takes a 3 point shot from near the gray area. I go up with 3 fingers and watch for contact on the shooter.

Your P has to know when you signal 3-point attempt, he has the responsibility of knowing if the basket was good.

Originally Posted by Lotto

The ball comes down looking as though it didn't hit anything. A second or two later, the home coach is yelling that the ball went in. I replay the shot in my head and realize that she's probably right. I blow my whistle and go and look at the basket---sure enough there's a hole in the back left where the ball could have gone through. At this point, I'm 95% sure that the ball went in.

I have no problem going to confirm this oddity, but it does look a little weird.

Originally Posted by Lotto

I ask my partner, and he (being a good official) didn't see anything from his spot, since he was watching rebounders.

See above. I think he is supposed to know.

Originally Posted by Lotto

I go to the table and ask timers (we have a shot clock in NY girls) and scorer---all agree that the ball went in. I count the basket.

Minor officials are part of the officiating crew. That's why we protect them from coaches berating them, etc.... I do believe there is text that describes on which issues we can consult them. Unfortunately, I can't confirm what they are right now. I have no problem with using the table staff. I realize that issues arise if they're students at the home school, though.

Originally Posted by Lotto

Needless to say, visitor coach isn't happy. He doesn't think that the table should be involved in any way with this decision. I explain to him that they are part of the officiating team, etc. He talks to my partner, but I intervene saying that this was my call and my decision and that we're moving on.

I think your P needs to back you up on the call, since s/he has no information to provide. You shouldn't need to intervene. But, you did, correctly, and moved forward.

Originally Posted by Lotto

He asks that the scorer write in the book that he's playing the game under protest. I inform him that there is no such thing as a protest in basketball and get the game going again.

Is this true under NCAA rules? You handled this part well.

Originally Posted by Lotto

My partner tells me that the visiting captain said that the ball had gone in and he asked her to tell her coach.

Nice.

Originally Posted by Lotto

After the half, we come out and I see the visiting coach talking to the table about the play. I have to drop the key to the locker room off at the table anyway, so I figure this is a good time to explain what my reasoning was to him. (NY is emphasizing communication with coaches and since this particular coach is a very reasonable guy, so I knew that I wasn't inviting a disaster here.) I go over the same points, admit that I had made an initial mistake, but said that I was 100% sure that the ball had gone in and that we had gotten the call right, which was the important thing. He still insisted that the table should not have been involved, but that the call should have been made on the floor by the two officials. We didn't get to any sort of agreement, so after a minute or so I went across the floor to my spot. No trouble in the 2nd half at all.

Should I have done anything different?

The only thing I don't like is the visiting coach bringing the issue up with the table again. It is over, the call is made. All communication goes through an official. It seems as though nothing major was going to happen because s/he is a reasonoable coach, which is the type we give more slack to, but had things gone down the toilet, I'd inform that coach that all communication goes through myself of my P.

Overall: thumbs up.

[Ron Giacoma]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Yes and no...yes it's a good thing to do, but no it would not have helped in this situation because closer means a tighter view, especially in a girls game since the focus isn't at the rim, so it would actually be harder to watch rebound action and see the basket from a closer spot.

What do you suggest ??

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Ron Giacoma

What do you suggest ??

Do the proper mechanics is all you can do, the OP was just a case of a bad net and a little loss of focus, which is easy to do in a girls game when you have a mosh pit on every rebound.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Do the proper mechanics is all you can do, the OP was just a case of a bad net and a little loss of focus, which is easy to do in a girls game when you have a mosh pit on every rebound.

Just for the record, the correct mechanics around here are to step down and out on the shot, whether it's boys or girls. Not all girls' games have a mosh pit under the basket after every shot, especially at the varsity level.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Just for the record, the correct mechanics around here are to step down and out on the shot, whether it's boys or girls. Not all girls' games have a mosh pit under the basket after every shot, especially at the varsity level.

How many HS girls games have you had with plenty of rebounding action at or above rim level?

Girls play horizontal, it's that simple, and that means more contact, more players in the lane after a shot and a lot less focus by the officials on the ball around the basket.

I can usually count on one hand the number of times per game the girls will attack the ball on a rebound and jump and go get it. That is the biggest adjustment I have to make doing both boys and girls games...at times the very next night...is that the basket violations come into play and I have to split my focus more.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think that you had to go over there to see what was going on. The coach shouldn't have been at the table. If he was there for some other reason ("My starters will start teh second half") then you can just drop off the key and leave. If he's there about the play, then you need to "protect" the table crew.

He wasn't arguing the play with the table, just talking in a friendly manner. As it happened, there wasn't any need to protect the table crew in this case.

[Ron Giacoma]

This is just food for thought.... Your Lead is not looking up. You at Trail did not see the ball go in the basket. All the players are either looking at the hoop knowing a 3ptr was launched, busy playing defense, or they are lookin up toward the rim while boxin' out. The ball goes through the basket and the Ladies in the paint either go the other way after the made basket or someone on defense grabs the dead ball and walks/steps out of bounds for the endline throw-in (running). If the shot were an "Air-Ball" as first thought from Trail, we would have the mosh pit thing going on near the endline. We don't rely on the kids to call the game for us however, the lead can assist the Trail since we did not hear a whistle (for traveling) by the Lead official when the defense picked up the ball and stepped out of bounds for the endline throw-in (running)... any input out there?

[Texas Aggie]

He doesn't think that the table should be involved in any way with this decision.

This should tell you that at worst, he's an idiot, and at best, he's being unreasonable. You will never convince people like this, so move on.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

How many HS girls games have you had with plenty of rebounding action at or above rim level?

Girls play horizontal, it's that simple, and that means more contact, more players in the lane after a shot and a lot less focus by the officials on the ball around the basket.

I can usually count on one hand the number of times per game the girls will attack the ball on a rebound and jump and go get it. That is the biggest adjustment I have to make doing both boys and girls games...at times the very next night...is that the basket violations come into play and I have to split my focus more.

I've had zero hs girls' games with any play above the rim. But that doesn't mean that they just bunch up under the basket. "Girls' play horizontal, it's that simple, and that means more contact" fine so far. Why does that mean more players in the lane after a shot? I don't follow you. And thus less focus on the ball by the official? Wow, I hope not!