Tip in at the buzzer

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This play is not different from the other plays of the same nature that has been discussed over the last couple of years, such as the one I posted last month that took place in Michigan.

MTD, Sr.

That's true.

It's also true that everyone else always disagrees with your rulings on those other plays.

Noboby touches the ball before time expires. Therefore, I'm going back to the original spot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?

What difference would it make if the throw-in wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off? What rule can you apply to put a new throw-in on the endline.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What difference would it make if the throw-in wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off?

Oooo, right!! Throw-in!! I was trying to be clever and point out that touching the backboard is like touching the floor. But touching the floor wouldn't matter here, would it? Oops!!

[FishinRef]

What difference would it make if the throw-in wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off? What rule can you apply to put a new throw-in on the endline.

I agree 100%. This ball goes back to the original throw-in spot with 1.1 back on the clock. Everything that happened after the horn sounded, unless flagrant, is meaningless.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?

Actually, that's a good question. It made me realize that my earlier answer was right, but for the wrong reason. (BTW, I now know that MTD's answer is also clearly incorrect.)

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Oooo, right!! Throw-in!! I was trying to be clever and point out that touching the backboard is like touching the floor. But touching the floor wouldn't matter here, would it? Oops!!

That's why. I was using the wrong rule to justify my decision.
I was mistakenly thinking of the ball location requirement in 4-36-2a.
This part of the POI rule and thus the ball location rule 4-4-3 do NOT apply to this play because there is another rule which takes precedence. That rule is 4-36-2b. This is the correct rule to use.

Since the horn which caused the stoppage (and this particular horn does because it signals the expiration of time in a quarter, albeit incorrectly) went off prior to any player touching the ball all of this activity was during the throw-in. Therefore, we resume with the game with this throw-in despite the ball contacting the floor or the backboard and perhaps even the ring as none of those events end the throw-in. (Due to the wording of 4-4-5 and 4-13-1+2, there is room for debate about the ring, but I believe that it counts.)

If this play had taken place under slightly different circumstances then 4-4-3 and 4-36-2a may well be the correct rules to use. For example, if there were six seconds on the clock and Team B shoots a FT which bounces around on the ring and the timer incorrectly starts the clock at this point. When A1 rebounds the miss under the basket and throws a long pass down court, it would matter if the ball touches another player, the floor, the backboard, or maybe even the ring down there prior to the horn erroneously sounding. If it does then that is the location of the POI throw-in. However, if the horn sounds before the passed ball touches anything, then the throw-in would be from the nearest spot to where A1 was when he threw the pass.

Thanks for making me think this one out better, Scrapper/JR.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If this play had taken place under slightly different circumstances then 4-4-3 and 4-36-2a may well be the correct rules to use. For example, if there were six seconds on the clock and Team B shoots a FT which bounces around on the ring and the timer incorrectly starts the clock at this point. When A1 rebounds the miss under the basket and throws a long pass down court, it would matter if the ball touches another player, the floor, the backboard, or maybe even the ring down there prior to the horn erroneously sounding. If it does then that is the location of the POI throw-in. However, if the horn sounds before the passed ball touches anything, then the throw-in would be from the nearest spot to where A1 was when he threw the pass.

Oh? Even if you don't have definite knowledge as to how much time ran off the clock before it was touched up court? Got a rules citation to back that up?

Iow, I don't agree with you either.

If you put 6 seconds back on the clock, then the ball goes where it was at when there was 6 seconds on the clock. That's happens to be the closest spot to where A1 was when he rebounded the missed FT. If you put less than 6 seconds on the clock, then you had better have definite information as to how much time to take off. If you don't, there's no rule that I'm aware of that will allow you to administer a new and completely different throw-in up court to where the ball is at the re-adjusted time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh? Even if you don't have definite knowledge as to how much time ran off the clock before it was touched up court? Got a rules citation to back that up?

Iow, I don't agree with you either.

If you put 6 seconds back on the clock, then the ball goes where it was at when there was 6 seconds on the clock. That's happens to be the closest spot to where A1 was when he rebounded the missed FT. If you put less than 6 seconds on the clock, then you had better have definite information as to how much time to take off. If you don't, there's no rule that I'm aware of that will allow you to administer a new and completely different throw-in up court to where the ball is at the re-adjusted time.

We agree about the definite knowledge aspect, so that's not an issue.

Where we disagree is the location of the POI throw-in when the clock is not going to be adjusted by the referee due to lack of definite knowledge.
The example that I gave above might not be the best one to use for those circumstances. It would, however, be a fine play to discuss under NCAA rules with a courtside monitor available.

Therefore, allow me to alter the play only slightly. The timer fails to start the clock and the official notices this, but has no definite knowledge of how much time has passed, when he blows his whistle:
a. while the ball is in flight during A1's long pass.
b. after the ball strikes the backboard in the frontcourt during A1's long pass.
c. after A2 catches A1's pass near the FT line in the frontcourt.
d. after A1's pass strikes the division line.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh? Even if you don't have definite knowledge as to how much time ran off the clock before it was touched up court? Got a rules citation to back that up?

Iow, I don't agree with you either.

If you put 6 seconds back on the clock, then the ball goes where it was at when there was 6 seconds on the clock. That's happens to be the closest spot to where A1 was when he rebounded the missed FT. If you put less than 6 seconds on the clock, then you had better have definite information as to how much time to take off. If you don't, there's no rule that I'm aware of that will allow you to administer a new and completely different throw-in up court to where the ball is at the re-adjusted time.

C'mon, JR, you're making it awfully tough. How can I possibly call this irascible?! Do I need to badger you until you get really grouchy, and then I can feel justified in laying it on you?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Therefore, allow me to alter the play only slightly. The timer fails to start the clock and the official notices this and blows his whistle:
a. while the ball is in flight during A1's long pass.
b. after the ball strikes the backboard in the frontcourt during A1's long pass.
c. after A2 catches A1's pass near the FT line in the frontcourt.
d. after A1's pass strikes the division line.

None of the above.

The ball goes to the closest spot to where it was first touched when the clock was supposed to start. That would be where A1 was the first player to touch the ball on a throw-in or missed FT, I imagine.

Again, you can't administer a new throw-in spot at the POI for any of the "a to d" scenarios unless you also take off the corresponding exact amount of time that was used to reach that spot. And you need "definite knowledge" to do so.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

None of the above.

The ball goes to the closest spot to where it was first touched when the clock was supposed to start. That would be where A1 was the first player to touch the ball on a throw-in or missed FT, I imagine.

Again, you can't administer a new throw-in spot at the POI for any of the "a to d" scenarios unless you also take off the corresponding exact amount of time that was used to reach that spot. And you need "definite knowledge" to do so.

Well 4-36-2a says the throw-in is at the nearest spot to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred. 4-4-3 tells us that ball location is determined by where the ball last touched a player or the court. Seems that the correct throw-in spot is at that location.

As for what you wrote in red, I totally disagree. Why do you believe that is true? There is nothing in the book saying that is the case.

For example, what if I give you a part e: after A2 catches the pass and scores a goal?
Now are you going to tell me that I can't continue the game with a POI throw-in to Team B along their end line with six seconds still on the clock?

I don't have definite knowledge to change the clock, so what else can I do? I know that you aren't advocating that I cancel the basket and go back to the location where A1 touched the ball and the clock failed to the start. However, that is what your statement in red says. Sorry, but I think that you are incorrect.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well 4-36-2a says the throw-in is at the nearest spot to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred. 4-4-3 tells us that ball location is determined by where the ball last touched a player or the court. Seems that the correct throw-in spot is at that location.

Um, yeah. That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you all along.

If the stoppage was with 6 seconds to go, and the clock never started again, where would you administer the throw-in if A1 was the first player to touch the ball on the court when the clock should have started but didn't? Closest spot to where he was when he actually touched the ball or where he subsequently threw the ball?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Well 4-36-2a says the throw-in is at the nearest spot to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred. 4-4-3 tells us that ball location is determined by where the ball last touched a player or the court. Seems that the correct throw-in spot is at that location.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, yeah. That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you all along.

No, you have been trying to tell me to put the throw-in at A1's location.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the stoppage was with 6 seconds to go, and the clock never started again, where would you administer the throw-in if A1 was the first player to touch the ball on the court when the clock should have started but didn't? Closest spot to where he was when he actually touched the ball or where he subsequently threw the ball?

That's the spot from where I would put the throw-in per the rules. That is not the same as the location of A1. In my examples, only part a would merit a throw-in nearest to the location of A1. In parts b,c,d,and e the throw-in would be at very different spots from where A1 was located. For the record those spots would correctly (per rules 4-36-2a and 4-4-3) be:
b. = end line in Team A's frontcourt
c. = end line in Team A's frontcourt
d. = sideline at the division line
e. = end line in Team B's backcourt with running rights.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref


For the record those spots would correctly (per rules 4-36-2a and 4-4-3) be:[/COLOR

b. = end line in Team A's frontcourt
c. = end line in Team A's frontcourt
d. = sideline at the division line
e. = end line in Team B's backcourt with running rights.

For the record, I think that you're full of doo-doo.

But that's just me.

Carry on, but without me. I'm at the "repeating myself over and over" stage.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For the record, I think that you're full of doo-doo.

I think he's past the doo-doo stage by now.

He's full of Scapplie-doo-doo.

Argh.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Is it?

Could it possibly be?

Did they really have midget pirates?

There's still hope, folks. We may have found some clues into the mysterious disappearance of Chuck Elias.

Stay tuned for episode 2......