Tip in at the buzzer

[dahoopref]

I saw this before my JC tournament game yesterday.

Team A (visiting) is down by 1 with 1.1 seconds left to play and must inbound the ball at the 28' mark opposite their bench. Everyone in the gym believes that Team A will set up an alley-oop play.

A1 inbounds the ball and passes it toward his team's rim for the alley-oop. The ball hits the back of the rim, bounces up, back down, rolls around the rim, and finally off the rim (what you have to picture is the players jumping up and down at the ball but no one touches it because their timing with the ball is off).

As the ball rolls off the rim the "horn" sounds to end the game but A2 (while both feet on the ground) quickly shoots the ball into the hoop (but thought the game was over because of the horn). The T & C know that the clock was started incorrectly.

Both teams think the game is over but the officials start to confer. Coach A & B realize what the officials are conferring about. Coach A starts complaining about that he is getting "homered" becauses he is the visiting team. Coach B says his players played the horn and did not defend A2's shot because they thought the game clock expired (and there was a defender right next to A2 when he shot).

1) What would you do?

2) What if either A or B touched the ball while it was on the rim? Basket interference?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

2) What if either A or B touched the ball while it was on the rim? Basket interference?

Yes.

(and, yes, I'm ignoring question #1).

[BktBallRef]

Chicken.

I would put 1.1 seconds back on the clock and we would inbound the ball again.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Chicken.

I would put 1.1 seconds back on the clock and we would inbound the ball again.

I hate these clock starts late/early problems. FWIW, I agree with Tony in this case. As much as this looks like a do-over, it really isn't. You are just applying the POI rule. You are deeming the ball dead when the horn sounds and have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock. We also know where the throw-in should come from due to the FED's clarification of ball location this year.

[johnnyrao]

Wow! I have no idea what I would do. While I agree that you could put 1.1 back ont he clock and a new throw-in, you will probably have to answer later to someone when the A Coach says his team won the game. Unfortunately, this is going to be bad either way so I think the best way to handle it IS to put the 1.1 seconds back on the clock and re-do the throw-in. What did the officials do?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I
Coach A starts complaining about that he is getting "homered" becauses he is the visiting team.
1) What would you do?

Give coach A a "T" for calling me a "homer", of course.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Chicken.

I would put 1.1 seconds back on the clock and we would inbound the ball again.

Tony, I agree with you that we have a to inbound the ball again with 1.1 seconds on the clock, but where would you inbound the ball?

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline. Team A, should not be penalized because of the Timer's mistake. Making Team A inbound the ball from the original throw-in would penalize them for the Timer's mistake.

This play is not different from the other plays of the same nature that has been discussed over the last couple of years, such as the one I posted last month that took place in Michigan.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tony, I agree with you that we have a to inbound the ball again with 1.1 seconds on the clock, but where would you inbound the ball?

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline.

MTD,
The description in the OP is a little confusing. I took the sequence to be:
1. Thrower releases the ball
2. The ball bounces around on the ring
3. The players are jumping up, but unable to touch the ball.
4. The ball comes off the front of the ring and is falling down towards A2 when the horn sounds. The horn sounded PRIOR to A2 touching the ball.
5. A2 catches the ball and quickly tosses it into the basket.


If that is the proper sequence, then 4-4-3 applies and the POI is the spot of the original throw-in. The NFHS made ball location clear in an interp this year.

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: Post players A5 and B5 are called for a double personal foul while the ball is in the air on a pass from A1 in A's backcourt to A2 in A's frontcourt. RULING: Team A had control of the ball when the double foul occurred, and thus play will be resumed at the point of interruption. Team A will have a designated spot throw-in in A's backcourt nearest to where A1 was last in contact with the ball. (4-4-3; 4-36; 6-4-3g; 7-5-9)


So, if A2 had caught the ball before the horn sounded, but had been unable to release the ball on a try for goal prior to the horn sounding, then I would agree with you that the POI throw-in should be on the end line.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline. Team A, should not be penalized because of the Timer's mistake. Making Team A inbound the ball from the original throw-in would penalize them for the Timer's mistake.

Heckuva idea. Don't penalize team A. Let's penalize team B instead by giving team A better floor position when there's no rule extant saying you can do so. That's a much better idea than just repeating the play and giving neither team an advantage that can't be justified by anything in the rules. Yup, heckuva idea.

If it isn't a "do-over", then what is it, Mark? Rules citation with your answer, please. If you can find a rule that will let you issue a brand new and different throw-in at a spot that you get to choose, I'll be ....well... surprised.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Heckuva idea. Don't penalize team A. Let's penalize team B instead by giving team A better floor position when there's no rule extant saying you can do so. That's a much better idea than just repeating the play and giving neither team an advantage that can't be justified by anything in the rules. Yup, heckuva idea.

If it isn't a "do-over", then what is it, Mark? Rules citation with your answer, please.

I gotta agree with JR here, but leave it to a dinosaur to use a word like "extant" in proper context!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

but leave it to a dinosaur to use a word like "extant" in proper context!

I'm not just another pretty face, y'know.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

mplagrow:

Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why isn't this play a do over? The answer is NO, and here is why:

1) Team A had the placed at its disposal for a designated spot stop-clocked throw-in. The spot of the throw-in for this play was on the sideline in Team A's front court.

2) By rule, Team A is to pass the ball such that it cross the sideline boundary and then touches or is touched by a player that is either inbounds or out-of-bounds. Team A did exactly that, as described in the play.

3) The fact that the Timer did not start the game clock correctly is not a factor in this play. The rules clearly state that the sounding of the game clock horn does not necessarily cause the ball to become dead or that play ceases. Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

4) Whether or not the game officials did or did not sound their whistles when the game clock horn sounded Team A DID complete the throw-in as required per the rules. a) If the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded then the ball became dead with their whistle. b) If the game officials did not sound their whistles until after A2 released the ball that subsequently went through the basket, then the ball did not become dead until after the top of the ball cleared the bottom of the net.

5) Therefore, by rule, if (4a) occured then Team A get the ball for a throw-in on its own endline nearest where A2 caught the A1's throw-in. If (4b) occured then Team B get the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the endline in its backcourt. In either case there are 1.1 second on the clock for either throw-in.

See the following 2006-07 NFHS Rules Book and Casebook:

RULES:
R2-S5-A5
R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7 (This reference may or may not be germane to this play but they are listed among the Timer’s duties.)
R5-S8 (I include this entire section because it may or may not be germane to this play, but it lists the Timer’s responsibilities regarding stopping the game clock.)
R5-S9-A1 and A4
R5-S10-A1 and A2

CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.9.3
5.9.4
5.10.1 Situations A, C(a, b c, and d), and D
5.10.2


See the following 2005-06 NFHS Casebook:

CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.10.1 Situation B (as well as the Comment)


MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Why isn't this play a do over?

3) The fact that the Timer did not start the game clock correctly is not a factor in this play. The rules clearly state that the sounding of the game clock horn does not necessarily cause the ball to become dead or that play ceases. Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

And this is where it all breaks down, Mark. Your statement above is completely wrong, by rule.
1) If the Timer not stopping the game correctly isn't a factor, then there's no applicable rule that will allow you to put time back on the clock to have another throw-in.
2) The rules clearly do state that the horn causes the ball to become dead at the end of a period. Rules 6-7-6 and 5-6-2 to be exact. There are exceptions to these rules, provided the ball is in the air on a try or tap when the horn goes. Unfortunately, for you, the ball wasn't in the air on a try or tap when the horn went off in this particular situation. The ball was in the air on a throw-in when the horn went off.

Everything that you so laboriously cited now goes down the crapper, Mark. None of it is even close to being applicable. All bafflegab iow.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

mplagrow:

Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why isn't this play a do over? The answer is NO, and here is why:

I've never seen such a lenghty answer to a "rhetorical question" and I've never seen the question "Why ..." answered, "No."

Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

And what if the whistle sounded before A2 touched the ball? Then, the location is still the original throw-in spot.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

MTD,
The description in the OP is a little confusing. I took the sequence to be:
1. Thrower releases the ball
2. The ball bounces around on the ring
3. The players are jumping up, but unable to touch the ball.
4. The ball comes off the front of the ring and is falling down towards A2 when the horn sounds. The horn sounded PRIOR to A2 touching the ball.
5. A2 catches the ball and quickly tosses it into the basket.


If that is the proper sequence, then 4-4-3 applies and the POI is the spot of the original throw-in.

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?