hand checking

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I know you're just trying to be complete and accurate, but the "Rhythm" part of the equation was an addition after "SBQ" first started circulating. So Billy's comments may just not have been updated. I attended at camp in '03 where NBA personnel taught us about "SBQ". The next year, the same thing was taught (by the same people) as RSBQ. Personally, I think the "R" is redundant.

Personally, I think that they were teaching the exact same concept....oh....about 30-40 years ago. It was, and is, taught as "Call the damn foul if a defender gets an advantage with a hand check". Don't go away though. There'll be a new buzzword out shortly to replace RSBQ.

Same old, same old Scrapy. Just re-inventing the wheel, is all.

Btw, they're were teaching the concept in college camps long before the NBA changed their rule re: clutching and grabbing. Believe it or not, even lowly high school officials were using and teaching the exact same concept a long time ago.

[Rusty Gilbert]

If as a defender I'm allowed to _______________ the dribbler, I gain an advantage:

a. keep my hand on
b. touch off and on multiple times
c. place my arm on
d. touch with both hands (or one forearm and one hand, or both forearms)
e. one-touch "size up" (like touching a hot stove--one time quick on and off)
f. a, b, c, and d
g. all of the above

I'd answer "F".....and call a hand check. Do it consistently and early, and the players and coaches will adjust. It will clean up play and take a lot fo the "gray area" guessing out.

Many coaches I know coach their players to use their hands and arms until the officials call a hand-check 2 or 3 times so that the coaches and players can identify where the line is going to be drawn in that particular game.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I think that they were teaching the exact same concept....oh....about 30-40 years ago.

Same old, same old Scrapy. Just re-inventing the wheel, is all.

Maybe. But I can honestly say that hearing SBQ gave me a more concrete basis for calling the handcheck than simply looking for a disadvantage.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe. But I can honestly say that hearing SBQ gave me a more concrete basis for calling the handcheck than simply looking for a disadvantage.

Why is that any different than simply saying that if the hand-check slows the dribbler down, call the foul? Isn't that basically the criteria that's always been used anyway(since the Pleistocene Era)?

Same old, same old......

[Mountaineer]

On the other side of the coin - as a former coach of 15 years - I always taught my kids two things - 1) to hand check 2) to reach. Nothing blatant, but during drills you'd hear me yelling "reach on purpose" and "hands on". Before I get castigated for teaching kids to break the rules - the reason it to teach over aggressivness. It's teaching them the limits - it's the officials job to see that they obey the rules or penalize them according to the rules. What I have found is most officials will call it between 3 and 6 times and then they become accustomed to it and stop calling it. My teams were always known as teams that played defense very hard and aggressive rather than a team that reached and hand-checked.

Now that I'm an official - knowing how I was - I wear my whistle out on it! LOL

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

If as a defender I'm allowed to _______________ the dribbler, I gain an advantage:

a. keep my hand on
b. touch off and on multiple times
c. place my arm on
d. touch with both hands (or one forearm and one hand, or both forearms)
e. one-touch "size up" (like touching a hot stove--one time quick on and off)
f. a, b, c, and d
g. all of the above

I'd answer "F".....and call a hand check. Do it consistently and early, and the players and coaches will adjust. It will clean up play and take a lot fo the "gray area" guessing out.

Many coaches I know coach their players to use their hands and arms until the officials call a hand-check 2 or 3 times so that the coaches and players can identify where the line is going to be drawn in that particular game.

Two hands is always a foul on the perimeter, HS college and pro. In HS and college you can do all the above except use two hands and get away with it cause there are no concrete handcheck guidelines. In the pro game the answer would be F. They have very concrete guidelines. If you use two hands, a "stayed" hand, an extended forearm, or anything, above the free throw line extended it is a foul whether their impedeing their progress or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In HS and college you can do all the above except use two hands and get away with it cause there are no concrete handcheck guidelines.

Are you serious? No concrete handcheck guidelines?

I realize that you don't have a clue when it comes to high school rules. That's kind of forgivable because, as per your own admission, you'd never done a high school game of any kind in your life up until this current season. And you probably still haven't. Trust me though, the FED sureasheck has issued concrete handcheck guidelines. But....you also told us that you're an NCAA college official. If so, don't you own an NCAA rule book? If you do, take a look on p.184. Be damned if that page isn't labelled and doesn't talk about "handchecking". Also, if you go to eofficials.com, you can watch the 2006-07 Men's Basketball Officiating Instructional Video- Chapter 6 - Handchecking, as put out by the NCAA for all of it's officials. I would imagine that most real NCAA officials have already seen it and used it as part of their training already.

No concrete handcheck guidelines? Lah me......

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Two hands is always a foul on the perimeter, HS college and pro. In HS and college you can do all the above except use two hands and get away with it cause there are no concrete handcheck guidelines. In the pro game the answer would be F. They have very concrete guidelines. If you use two hands, a "stayed" hand, an extended forearm, or anything, above the free throw line extended it is a foul whether their impedeing their progress or not.

I disagree it is always a foul. What if the ball handler never moves anywhere and all you have is a defender touching the player? I give less leeway with two hands on a ball handler, but that does not mean I will stop a play as a result. I might just let the play finish and award a shooting foul instead. I do not think we should be so quick to call a handcheck just because players are touching each other. So times the defender gets completely beat and nothing happens.

Peace

[Adam]

I agree with Rut. Putting two hands on a ball handler is an awkward movement and might lead to getting burnt. This where that patient whistle comes in handy. Maybe I should hold my whistle in my hand in my next JV game just to force me to be patient.