Shirt tucked in

[Mountaineer]

In my pre-game with coaches/captains after I ask the coaches if the players are properly equipped and going to remain that way - I look at the captains and tell them that means their shirts are tucked in and their shorts are pulled up - this is your only warning. If you bust them in the first quarter you will not have another problem. I am such a jerk when it comes to this issue. When I beckon them in if their shirt isn't tucked in I tell them they aren't ready to enter the game and we'll get them next dead ball. You escort one player off the floor because his/her shirt is untucked the coach will take care of it. Just the way I do it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

In my pre-game with coaches/captains after I ask the coaches if the players are properly equipped and going to remain that way - I look at the captains and tell them that means their shirts are tucked in and their shorts are pulled up - this is your only warning. If you bust them in the first quarter you will not have another problem. I am such a jerk when it comes to this issue. When I beckon them in if their shirt isn't tucked in I tell them they aren't ready to enter the game and we'll get them next dead ball. You escort one player off the floor because his/her shirt is untucked the coach will take care of it. Just the way I do it.

That's nice. Most officials do so too.

But.....the question is whether you make them tuck their shirts in during the warm-up. Do you?

[Mountaineer]

No - aren't they considered bench personnel at that time? I think rules like this only apply to live-ball situations. If a kid has blood on his jersey - they can sit on the bench can't they? They can't come back into the game until it's been taken care of. A player can have an illegal number but it's not a violation until they enter the game. In pre-game warm-ups I am not concerned with a jersey untucked. If a player is wearing an illegal headband or sweatband - I tell them they can't wear that in the game. Again, right? wrong? I don't know - just how I do it. I'm mostly looking for illegal things that someone's going to get injured on - metal clips in the hair, problem braces, etc. I don't see anything in the rules that tell me the shirt needs to be tucked in the shorts during pregame.

[FishinRef]

1) That's covered under UNIFORMS- rule 3-4-15 also. To be consistent, I would say that you would have to call it exactly the same as the "shirt-tuck" rule. And, again, if you are consistent, shouldn't both be called the whole game, including pre-game, on the bench, intermissions, etc.?

2) There's a completely different rule and philosophy covering these items. They are covered under EQUIPMENT, APPAREL in rule 3-5, and are banned completely. The items in 3-4-15 aren't banned but are supposed to be worn in a certain way. Iow, you're comparing apples vs. oranges rules-wise.
Yesterday 09:15pm

You bring up a valid point. I have never considered the rule 3-4-15 from that perspective. I'll have to ponder this one for a moment. I thought the shirt-tuck rule was intended for all players participating during a live ball. But the rule does not specify conditions or time periods for enforcement. So now, I could easily assume that the rule is in effect during the ENTIRE Official's jurisdiction. e.g. "including pre-game, on the bench, intermissions, etc.?"

Better yet, somebody get the NFHS on the phone, tell 'em we got a question.............

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

But.....the question is whether you make them tuck their shirts in during the warm-up. Do you?

NO!....wait, let me make it clearer...HELL NO!

[HawkeyeCubP]

I'm going to chime in with some Rule Book references here. While it never says when uniforms are to be worn properly, it does state, in ONE place, what is supposed to happen when a certain uniform violation occurs, which I personally think can be applied to uniform violations of all types. See if you follow me here:

3-4-15 A team jersey designed to be worn inside the pants/skirt shall be tucked inside the pants/skirt and the pants/skirt shall be above the hips and worn properly. A player not conforming to this uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game. A team member shall not remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt in the visual confines of the playing area. See 10-3-7h and 10-4-1h for penalty.

So the question is, if using my logic that we can apply this to all uniform violations, when is "the game," and does it include pre-game warm-ups? I think 2-2-2 tells us when "the game" is:

2-2-2 The officials' jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The officials' arrival on the floor shall be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.

This implies that "the game" starts when the ball first becomes live (i.e. when the opening jump ball is scheduled to occur), which does NOT include anything before that time.

Additionally, 10-3-2 refers to a penalty for a particular uniform violation, but I would hope that no one has assessed said penalty prior to the ball first becoming live to start the game:

10-3-2 Wear an illegal number or an illegal shirt or illegal pants/skirt.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) Each violation is penalized one time if discovered prior to ball becoming live for each designated starter and each substitute who enters.

So, logically, if you do not enforce a penalty for a uniform violation before the game starts......THEN YOU CANNOT ENFORCE SAID UNFORM RULES BEFORE THE GAME.

Do you direct someone to leave pre-game warm-ups for wearing an earring? No. You remind them it has to come out before they come in the game when they next get into the drill line in front of you. Do you direct someone to leave the pre-game warm-ups for having a brace made of hard, unyielding material, that is not properly covered? No. You take the issue up with the player/coach before the game starts, but you do not MAKE them stop warming up.

If one chooses to start enforcing uniform requirements during pre-game warm-ups, then so be it, but I do not think the Rule Book has any backing for it.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Do you direct someone to leave pre-game warm-ups for wearing an earring? No. You remind them it has to come out before they come in the game when they next get into the drill line in front of you. Do you direct someone to leave the pre-game warm-ups for having a brace made of hard, unyielding material, that is not properly covered? No. You take the issue up with the player/coach before the game starts, but you do not MAKE them stop warming up.

If one chooses to start enforcing uniform requirements during pre-game warm-ups, then so be it, but I do not think the Rule Book has any backing for it.

Actually for the instances you mentioned I would act on it immediately. The reason would be a safety issue - even for the player's teammates. If they have an earring in or a brace that is illegal someone on his or her team could be injured in warm ups so I would instruct them to remove the earring immediately and would immediately walk over to the coach with the player and discuss the brace. I do however agree with your logic, I just disagree with these illustrations.

[Adam]

You can't make them take the earring out or the undershirt off. You can only inform them they can't play with it. Let me repeat, they can't play with it. They can warm up with these things, just can't play. They can warm up in a tuxedo (complete with cufflinks and tie tack) for all I care, but when the game starts, they have to be dressed properly.

[Jimgolf]

What is the definition of player? What is the definition of bench personnel?

SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM
MEMBERS
ART. 1 . . . A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at
any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a
team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

A player not conforming to this uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game.

Does this answer the question?

[Official99]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget common sense.....

What do the rules say?

Do players in the pre-game warm-up have to tuck their shirts in?

I would say, if the players have to wear their mouthgaurds during warm-up and they have to be "ready to play" during warm-up, then I enforce that the shirts have to be tucked in during warm-up.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

They can warm up in a tuxedo (complete with cufflinks and tie tack) for all I care, but when the game starts, they have to be dressed properly.

Why would anyone wear a tie tack with a tuxedo? Bow tie dragging in the gravy?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You can't make them take the earring out or the undershirt off. You can only inform them they can't play with it. Let me repeat, they can't play with it. They can warm up with these things, just can't play. They can warm up in a tuxedo (complete with cufflinks and tie tack) for all I care, but when the game starts, they have to be dressed properly.

Whoa, Snaqs. As Mountaineer said, there is a very specific rule stating that jewelry cannot be worn during warm-ups. That includes cufflinks too. They have to go sit on the bench until they remove the jewelry. Casebook play 3.5SitB. There is no similar definitive rule or case play covering tucked-shirts during warm-ups that I know of though. They are covered under completely different sections in the rule book too.

Fwiw, a very credible source in the similar thread on the NFHS site has also stated that his state has issued a directive that shirts should be kept tucked in during warm-ups. Just thought that I'd throw that into the discussion too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Do you direct someone to leave pre-game warm-ups for wearing an earring? No. You remind them it has to come out before they come in the game when they next get into the drill line in front of you. Do you direct someone to leave the pre-game warm-ups for having a brace made of hard, unyielding material, that is not properly covered? No. You take the issue up with the player/coach before the game starts, but you do not MAKE them stop warming up.

Yes, you do stop them warming up. See case book play 3.5SitB.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Official99

I would say, if the players have to wear their mouthgaurds during warm-up and they have to be "ready to play" during warm-up, then I enforce that the shirts have to be tucked in during warm-up.

I believe that MASS has a mouthguard rule. I don't know if wearing the mouthguard during warm-ups is mandatory also though. Maybe someone from MASS can chime in here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

What is the definition of player? What is the definition of bench personnel?



A player not conforming to this uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game.

Does this answer the question?

No. Case book play 3.5SitB uses the term "team member", as defined in R4-34-4. The inference is that anybody warming up pre-game is a "team member".

Unfortunately, case book play 3.5SitB also states that the the official must inform the team member to remove the jewelry immediately. That statement is completely contradictory to other directives issued by the FED when the "jewelry" rule was implemented. The directive always has been that you can't tell a team member to remove jewelry. Instead, you tell them that they simply can't warm-up or play until they do so.