Overtime Chaos

[FishinRef]

bigdogrunnin, I was offended greatly by your initial reply. If it wasn't intended to be degrading or demeaning, then I apologize sincerely for over reacting. We are all fellow Officials in the trenches every night. We get enough crap from everyone else without giving it to one another. For my comments, I retract, and I am sorry.

My original question is "at what point during the the start of the OT, would you call this T?" If you have notified the coach, and stated that somebody has to go, which we did. At what point during the game is this a T?

1. When R enters the circle?
2. When R releases the toss?
3. When ball is tapped?
4. When possession is gained by either team?

[Jurassic Referee]

My original question is "at what point during the the start of the OT, would you call this T?" If you have notified the coach, and stated that somebody has to go, which we did. At what point during the game is this a T?

2. When R releases the toss?

As already answered above, when the ball becomes live you've now got more than 5 team members participating. Technical foul when the ball is released on the jump by the R as per NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As already answered above, when the ball becomes live you've now got more than 5 team members participating. Technical foul when the ball is released on the jump by the R as per NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY.

You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today?

Yup, I knew that when I posted it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, I knew that when I posted it.

I think that he does it just to iritate me.

[Junker]

First off, no way do you throw a T on this. There's plenty of time to sort things out before the ball goes live. As far as pointing, I was taught never to point while you count. I have heard officials get dinged for pointing and counting at camps. Personally, I think when you point while you count you look a little unsure of the game and also you call attention to the fact that you are counting. If you don't point, you can get your players counted without anyone even knowing you're doing it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Junker

First off, no way do you throw a T on this. There's plenty of time to sort things out before the ball goes live. As far as pointing, I was taught never to point while you count. I have heard officials get dinged for pointing and counting at camps. Personally, I think when you point while you count you look a little unsure of the game and also you call attention to the fact that you are counting. If you don't point, you can get your players counted without anyone even knowing you're doing it.

I hadn't thought about this before, but pointing while counting could have some unintended consequences. They all know we do it, but it may set the expectation that if a 6-player T happens, it was the officials' fault.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hadn't thought about this before, but pointing while counting could have some unintended consequences. They all know we do it, but it may set the expectation that if a 6-player T happens, it was the officials' fault.

This is just one more item on my "I don't get it" list. I have always thought "don't point while you count" thing was one of those "it's right because I say it's right" things. What possible difference could it make whether you can be seen counting players? We are expected to count players, why not be seen doing what we're supposed to do? We are required count seconds visibly, so counting visibly isn't inherently a bad thing. So either there's a very good reason that I've never been told, or it started with some influential person's personal preference and has become a monkies and firehoses thing.

As for it being the official's fault, we get blamed either way. If they see us counting and we end up with six, they'll think official can't count or that he knew but deliberately didn't say anything. If they don't see him count, and end up with six, they think he didn't do his job. The only way to "win" is to catch this and prevent it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hadn't thought about this before, but pointing while counting could have some unintended consequences. They all know we do it, but it may set the expectation that if a 6-player T happens, it was the officials' fault.

Bingo.

Yes, the officials should always try to prevent it, if possible. Still.....sh!t will happen. That's rule #11. But, the bottom line is that having 6 players on the floor is NEVER, EVER the official's fault. It's always the coach's fault.

It seems that some people seem to forget that little point.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Bingo.

Yes, the officials should always try to prevent it, if possible. Still.....sh!t will happen. That's rule #11. But, the bottom line is that having 6 players on the floor is NEVER, EVER the official's fault. It's always the coach's fault.

It seems that some people seem to forget that little point.

Actually, sometimes it's the fault of the player who went in the game when he wasn't told to by the coach. You can't ALWAYS hang it on the coach. That's also why this is only a Team Technical, and is not even charged as an indirect on the head coach.

[FishinRef]

Old School
Couple of things here. #1. If there are too many players on the court, and play begins, it is the referees fault period. Charge the technical to the offending team but we as a crew blew it. This should never happen and it's a little harder in football where you have to count up 11 players. #2. If the coach was smart, he would not say anything until the toss is release, then he can start screaming. To do it before, he just let us know (before play became live) that we got too many, and yes, I will hold the game up and get the extra player off the court, no violation, thank you coach!

There was actually 3 things wrong here. Referees didn't notice too many players on the court, the opposing coach making everyone aware before the ball is in play and finally one of the coaches sending too many players out to start the OT. Wow! That was an interesting overtime.

Just to clarify........ Referees DID notice too many players, Referees did advise players and coach. Referee held the toss until A6 got off the floor.

#2. If the coach was smart, he would not say anything until the toss is release, then he can start screaming.

My Point Exactly.

My reasoning for this post was to verify that we didn't miss something by Not Calling the T.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

Just to clarify........ Referees DID notice too many players, Referees did advise players and coach. Referee held the toss until A6 got off the floor.

My Point Exactly.

My reasoning for this post was to verify that we didn't miss something by Not Calling the T.

No, sounds like you nailed it to me. Good job!

[Texas Aggie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

when the ball becomes live you've now got more than 5 team members participating. Technical foul when the ball is released on the jump by the R as per NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY.

Correct. Since "participating" isn't specifically defined, and there isn't a case book play specifically on point, a reasonable interp of the rule is that the 5 team members are participating when the ball becomes live.

Interestingly, in football, the (NCAA) rule for the often used phrase, "too many men on the field" is either a 15 yard illegal participation foul if they are actually participating, or a 5 yard illegal substitution foul if they are busting *ss off the field (and don't quite make it!). Years ago, the fed rules stated in the comments to the rules (used to be at the end of the rules; now included in each rule, but slimmed down from what I recall) something to the effect of "minor technical (meaning letter of the law rather than rule 10 specific) infractions should be ignored if they are inadvertent and have no bearing on the game." Does anyone believe that if a player realizes he's the sixth man on the floor, leaves during the toss but doesn't quite make it all the way off, and this doesn't affect the opponent at all, that we should just ignore it? In this situation, the officials had full knowledge of the player leaving.

[Ray_from_Mi]

If preventative doesn't work, then this event is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. I would expect the other two on the crew to note that six are still on from one team. Once I toss the ball and it's touched immediately a whistle should sound and indicate six on the floor. We then shoot two and take the ball at 1/2 court. Once the ball is inbound, we then set the arrow. Due to possession not being established at the toss, it is pointed away from the team that inbounds the ball. (I think that's right)

[jontheref]

Mark's got it right. If I am the R I will say something to the captain..."captain...do you have 5?" One of my U's in a three man has got to get me thumbs up or I'm not putting it up. If I am one of the U's --I will simply tell the coach --"count your players". He knows what I am talking about. At any rate, there isn't a way in the world that I am starting an OT with a T unless it is absolutely necessary.