granting time-out as player goes oob

[just another ref]

Last week I watched a game where twice (once for each team) a time out was granted to a player who called it as he went out of bounds. In both cases (one was extremely close, the other was not) the player signaled while in the air, but the whistle was blown after the player had landed out of bounds. My interpretation has always been that the request must be recognized and granted by the official before the ball becomes dead, which it clearly was in these cases when the player landed out of bounds. How does everyone else handle this?

[Rusty Gilbert]

I don't ever want to be too quick on this whistle. In high school, an airborne player who has control of the ball can request such a timeout. For me, all that matters is that I be convinced player has ball control and that the ball was still live when he made the request. If I happen to blow my whistle before or after he lands OOB does not negate the fact that the player made a legitimate TO request and, by rule, should be granted the TO.

In NCAA, a rule change this year makes an airborne player whose momentum carries him/her OOB or into the backcourt (in situations where it would be a B/C violation) unable to make a valid timeout request. In these instances, we MUST be patient for the player to land and determine if the momentum truly carried the player OOB or into the backcourt. If so, then we ignore the request and whistle the violation. If they land inbounds or in the frontcourt (thereby avoiding initially the violation), then we would acknowledge the reuqest and award the timeout.

A valid and legal TO request should be acknowledged and the timeout awarded, even if the awarding is a little late.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

If I happen to blow my whistle before or after he lands OOB does not negate the fact that the player made a legitimate TO request and, by rule, should be granted the TO.


A valid and legal TO request should be acknowledged and the timeout awarded, even if the awarding is a little late.

What rule are we looking at to make this determination?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What rule are we looking at to make this determination?

Why does it need a rule? The whistle doesn't make the ball dead -- it's the action on the court that does.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Why does it need a rule? The whistle doesn't make the ball dead -- it's the action on the court that does.

That was my point. Requesting a time-out does not make the ball dead.
Landing out of bounds does.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That was my point. Requesting a time-out does not make the ball dead.
Landing out of bounds does.

Right, but you seem to be missing Rich's point. The TO request came before the ball was dead, and is thus legitimate and should be granted. The rule does not require that the granting of the TO occur before the ball becomes dead.
5-8-3

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Right, but you seem to be missing Rich's point. The TO request came before the ball was dead, and is thus legitimate and should be granted. The rule does not require that the granting of the TO occur before the ball becomes dead.
5-8-3

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a players/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.

Time-out occurs when it is granted, not when it is requested.

As written, it does require the granting before the ball becomes dead.

It could easily read, "...such request being granted only when the request is made while the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team."

[Rusty Gilbert]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What rule are we looking at to make this determination?

5.8.
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:

ART.3...Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a.) The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.


The whistle doesn't have to blow within a milisecond of the timout request occuring for it to be recognized and then dealt with appropriately. I believe that the provision in 5.8.3.a refers to when the moment the TO request is made, not to the moment when the whistle is blown.

For example, if a player makes a valid timeout request (in other words, the conditions of 5.8.3.a are all met), then I should award the timeout.

I don't think that the "conditions" of 5.8.3.a must necessarily continue until I blow the whistle, only that they must be present when the request is made and that I recognize and award the TO in a timely fashion.

For an analogy consider this: a foul by B1 occurs on A1. I do not have to blow my whistle WHILE the foul is still happening in order for it to be a valid foul call. In most cases, the whistle is reference a "foul" condition that existed in the past, has now been recognized to be illegal, and is being dealt with appropriately. Using official speak, the foul happened, and I go back and get it.

Just my thots.....merry christmas.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

I don't think that the "conditions" of 5.8.3.a must necessarily continue until I blow the whistle, only that they must be present when the request is made and that I recognize and award the TO in a timely fashion.

For an analogy consider this: a foul by B1 occurs on A1. I do not have to blow my whistle WHILE the foul is still happening in order for it to be a valid foul call. In most cases, the whistle is reference a "foul" condition that existed in the past, has now been recognized to be illegal, and is being dealt with appropriately. Using official speak, the foul happened, and I go back and get it.

The two things are apparently not the same.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals: 16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead. (it is already dead) seldom, not never

6-7-7: The ball becomes dead......when.......a foul occurs.

6-7-5: The ball becomes dead.....when.....an official's whistle is blown.

A time-out being requested is not included in the list of things which make the ball dead.


As mentioned earlier:

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a players/head coach's oral or visual request for a
time-out.... (not when it is requested)


What if A's coach is behind you and asks for a time-out? You hear the request, but before you can turn to verify that it is the head coach, B steals the ball and lays it in. You then turn and see that it was indeed the head coach. You're not going to wave off the basket, are you?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The two things are apparently not the same.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals: 16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead. (it is already dead) seldom, not never

6-7-7: The ball becomes dead......when.......a foul occurs.

6-7-5: The ball becomes dead.....when.....an official's whistle is blown.

A time-out being requested is not included in the list of things which make the ball dead.


As mentioned earlier:

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a players/head coach's oral or visual request for a
time-out.... (not when it is requested)


What if A's coach is behind you and asks for a time-out? You hear the request, but before you can turn to verify that it is the head coach, B steals the ball and lays it in. You then turn and see that it was indeed the head coach. You're not going to wave off the basket, are you?

Yes, I would, but then again I wouldn't even bother turning to verify it was the head coach. And yes, if the ball is stolen before the whistle, I would grant the time out as it was requested before the steal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Time-out occurs when it is granted, not when it is requested.

As written, it does require the granting before the ball becomes dead.

It could easily read, "...such request being granted only when the request is made while the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team."

I think that you might be confusing the granting of the TO with my subsequent whistle, hand signal, and announcement. The granting is a mental event that can take place virtually instantaneously with the request. Whistling etc. takes a bit longer.

Same with the issue of a TO just before the opponent steals the ball. FWIW I agree with Rich.

[Adam]

I've whistled time-outs while the ball is in flight for a shot, after 5 seconds have elapsed during a throwin, after the ball gets tied up on the floor, while a pass is in flight, and after a player has stepped out of bounds; all because the time-out was requested while all of the necessary ingredients were in place. Had the head of the state's officials comment only that my partner's whistle was late on a TO request, but otherwise it was valid.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think that you might be confusing the granting of the TO with my subsequent whistle, hand signal, and announcement. The granting is a mental event that can take place virtually instantaneously with the request. Whistling etc. takes a bit longer.

Same with the issue of a TO just before the opponent steals the ball. FWIW I agree with Rich.

I whistled a coach-requested TO just as a player let go of a 3 that swished. Coach just said, "that always seems to happen" and smiled.

[bigdogrunnin]

If the timeout request was made, and all conditions to LEGALLY request the timeout were present, and the official can verify that the coach of the team in possession of the ball was the person requesting the timeout, why would any official NOT grant it? Just curious.

Just last week (in the same game) I had the exact scenarios Rich and Snaq described. In one, Team A player is trapped in the corner by B1 and B2. Team A coach requests TO. Before my co-official can blow his whistle, there is a steal. TWEET! He gave the TO to Team A. Team B Coach didn't like it, but the request was made and had been granted by the official even though he wasn't able to signal as much until after the steal had been made. In the second situation, Team A player is spotting up for a 3-pt. shot. Coach requests TO. I check to make sure it is the HC, and look for a signal or verbal request. GOT IT! Player shoots the 3-pt shot. TWEET! SWISH! Nothing but net. Me: "No Shot! No Shot! Time out, white!" I wave off the basket, and report the timeout request to the table. Coach understood. He didn't like the fact that HIS request cost his team 3 points (they lost by ONE), but his action determined the outcome. I have to go with what I have at that moment. As an official I can't try to foresee the future, I can only go with the present.

BTW, the timeout request shall be granted as long as the player has control of the ball and his position is legally inbounds. Since his last legal position was inbounds, he is not OOB until he hits the floor OOB. I did have a coach yell at me one night, "this isn't the NBA! He can't do that." My reply, "Coach, timeout Blue!" He wanted to vent, and bait me into a response. He got to vent, but I gave up being a fish a long time ago.

[just another ref]

This has confirmed my idea that this is one of those things where "everybody does it that way," I am still having a problem with the language in the books.

5-8 reads: Time-out occurs.....when an official
1. signals.....
2. stops play
3. grants a .....request
4. responds to the scorer's
signal

The way I read this, it ain't a time-out until we say it is.

This, of course, is as opposed to a foul or violation, which cause the ball to become dead when they occur. 6-7

Why does 6-7 not include: ball becomes dead when a player/head coach requests a time-out. or: an official recognizes the request for a time-out which has been properly made by a player or head coach.

Is there anything written anywhere (nfhs interpretation, old casebook play) which supports the position of everybody else in the world except me on this issue?