granting time-out as player goes oob

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

If I happen to blow my whistle before or after he lands OOB does not negate the fact that the player made a legitimate TO request and, by rule, should be granted the TO.


A valid and legal TO request should be acknowledged and the timeout awarded, even if the awarding is a little late.

What rule are we looking at to make this determination?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What rule are we looking at to make this determination?

Why does it need a rule? The whistle doesn't make the ball dead -- it's the action on the court that does.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Why does it need a rule? The whistle doesn't make the ball dead -- it's the action on the court that does.

That was my point. Requesting a time-out does not make the ball dead.
Landing out of bounds does.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That was my point. Requesting a time-out does not make the ball dead.
Landing out of bounds does.

Right, but you seem to be missing Rich's point. The TO request came before the ball was dead, and is thus legitimate and should be granted. The rule does not require that the granting of the TO occur before the ball becomes dead.
5-8-3

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Right, but you seem to be missing Rich's point. The TO request came before the ball was dead, and is thus legitimate and should be granted. The rule does not require that the granting of the TO occur before the ball becomes dead.
5-8-3

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a players/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.

Time-out occurs when it is granted, not when it is requested.

As written, it does require the granting before the ball becomes dead.

It could easily read, "...such request being granted only when the request is made while the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Time-out occurs when it is granted, not when it is requested.

As written, it does require the granting before the ball becomes dead.

It could easily read, "...such request being granted only when the request is made while the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team."

I think that you might be confusing the granting of the TO with my subsequent whistle, hand signal, and announcement. The granting is a mental event that can take place virtually instantaneously with the request. Whistling etc. takes a bit longer.

Same with the issue of a TO just before the opponent steals the ball. FWIW I agree with Rich.

[Adam]

I've whistled time-outs while the ball is in flight for a shot, after 5 seconds have elapsed during a throwin, after the ball gets tied up on the floor, while a pass is in flight, and after a player has stepped out of bounds; all because the time-out was requested while all of the necessary ingredients were in place. Had the head of the state's officials comment only that my partner's whistle was late on a TO request, but otherwise it was valid.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think that you might be confusing the granting of the TO with my subsequent whistle, hand signal, and announcement. The granting is a mental event that can take place virtually instantaneously with the request. Whistling etc. takes a bit longer.

Same with the issue of a TO just before the opponent steals the ball. FWIW I agree with Rich.

I whistled a coach-requested TO just as a player let go of a 3 that swished. Coach just said, "that always seems to happen" and smiled.

[Rusty Gilbert]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What rule are we looking at to make this determination?

5.8.
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:

ART.3...Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a.) The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.


The whistle doesn't have to blow within a milisecond of the timout request occuring for it to be recognized and then dealt with appropriately. I believe that the provision in 5.8.3.a refers to when the moment the TO request is made, not to the moment when the whistle is blown.

For example, if a player makes a valid timeout request (in other words, the conditions of 5.8.3.a are all met), then I should award the timeout.

I don't think that the "conditions" of 5.8.3.a must necessarily continue until I blow the whistle, only that they must be present when the request is made and that I recognize and award the TO in a timely fashion.

For an analogy consider this: a foul by B1 occurs on A1. I do not have to blow my whistle WHILE the foul is still happening in order for it to be a valid foul call. In most cases, the whistle is reference a "foul" condition that existed in the past, has now been recognized to be illegal, and is being dealt with appropriately. Using official speak, the foul happened, and I go back and get it.

Just my thots.....merry christmas.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gilbert

I don't think that the "conditions" of 5.8.3.a must necessarily continue until I blow the whistle, only that they must be present when the request is made and that I recognize and award the TO in a timely fashion.

For an analogy consider this: a foul by B1 occurs on A1. I do not have to blow my whistle WHILE the foul is still happening in order for it to be a valid foul call. In most cases, the whistle is reference a "foul" condition that existed in the past, has now been recognized to be illegal, and is being dealt with appropriately. Using official speak, the foul happened, and I go back and get it.

The two things are apparently not the same.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals: 16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead. (it is already dead) seldom, not never

6-7-7: The ball becomes dead......when.......a foul occurs.

6-7-5: The ball becomes dead.....when.....an official's whistle is blown.

A time-out being requested is not included in the list of things which make the ball dead.


As mentioned earlier:

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a players/head coach's oral or visual request for a
time-out.... (not when it is requested)


What if A's coach is behind you and asks for a time-out? You hear the request, but before you can turn to verify that it is the head coach, B steals the ball and lays it in. You then turn and see that it was indeed the head coach. You're not going to wave off the basket, are you?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The two things are apparently not the same.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals: 16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead. (it is already dead) seldom, not never

6-7-7: The ball becomes dead......when.......a foul occurs.

6-7-5: The ball becomes dead.....when.....an official's whistle is blown.

A time-out being requested is not included in the list of things which make the ball dead.


As mentioned earlier:

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a players/head coach's oral or visual request for a
time-out.... (not when it is requested)


What if A's coach is behind you and asks for a time-out? You hear the request, but before you can turn to verify that it is the head coach, B steals the ball and lays it in. You then turn and see that it was indeed the head coach. You're not going to wave off the basket, are you?

Yes, I would, but then again I wouldn't even bother turning to verify it was the head coach. And yes, if the ball is stolen before the whistle, I would grant the time out as it was requested before the steal.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Yes, I would, but then again I wouldn't even bother turning to verify it was the head coach.

Bad, bad, idea, Rich.

2003-04 Points of Emphasis
...
4. Time-Out Administration
The committee discussed several problems that have arisen regarding time-outs being called by the head coach during a live ball. Officials should verify that it is indeed the head coach requesting the time-out and that the ball is in possession of the calling team.

[Ignats75]

On that note, we had a girls JV game a week or so ago that the coach was upset because we didn't grant him the timeout during a potential jumpball before his girl got tied up. The problem was that there were 6 or seven people calling timeout....Fans, ***'t coaches, as well as head coach. By the time my partner was able to identify the head coach's voice was included in the din, I had already killed the play with two thumbs up.

I saw the coach after the game and he asked about it. I explained to him that all his fans calling timeout actually hurt the team. He was going to send a note out to the parents the next week.