NBA...at it again!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

That foul definitely deserved a Flagrant 2. The NBA refs referee plays like that on the basis of W-I-F. It stands for Wind up, Impact, and Follow-through. Not all three have to be present to award a Flagrant 2 and eject a player, but that is how they use it. In this case, the Wind up was def. there, the impact was def. there, maybe not so much of the follow through because he pulled his hands back up, but like I said not all 3 have to be present to eject. It was def. an ejectable offense.

Great. You're entitled to your opinion but so am I and I still disagree. I do not think Collins would have been ejected if the fight had not occurred. Robinson is signalling two shots in the video. He is not signalling an ejection as you stated in your post. That is very clear.

[Old School]

Mr. Rutledge, I'm sorry but I'm not buying your argument. 20 points is not that big of a lead in the NBA with less than 2 minutes to play. I have seen 2 minutes take up to an hour to play in the NBA. Plus, not too many years ago, Denver was getting beat when they had big leads going into the final minutes. In addition, George Karl does not strike me as the type of man that would run up the score.

There maybe something to the point that George and Larry Brown are old bud's and not liking what the Knicks did to Larry reputation, however, can't prove any of that.

As far as showtime. The NBA is all about showtime, monster dunks, spectacular dunks, etc. Players are getting paid million of dollars and the fans are paying top dollar to see this action. They should come out to compete every night or expect to get whoop pretty good. I still don't think Denver was pouring it on as bad as the Knicks are making it out to be. I think the Laker's was pouring it on when they left Kobie in the game to score 81 points. Now, I can see that type of foul on Kobie that night, damn, too bad Isiah wasn't coaching that team. That's what I call running it up! That's the unwritten code that you speak of.

What we had here, was not a failure to communicate, but some young men overreacting to the situation (btw, foul was a F1, debatable F2) and a coach who took it personally. Isiah is not a good coach to me, imho. Guaranteed, you will see more stuff like this from him this season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

Mr. Rutledge, I'm sorry but I'm not buying your argument. 20 points is not that big of a lead in the NBA with less than 2 minutes to play. I have seen 2 minutes take up to an hour to play in the NBA. Plus, not too many years ago, Denver was getting beat when they had big leads going into the final minutes. In addition, George Karl does not strike me as the type of man that would run up the score.

First of all I do not care if you buy it or not. I was not asking for your approval to my position. I was only stating my opinion that was pretty much it.

Originally Posted by Old School

There maybe something to the point that George and Larry Brown are old bud's and not liking what the Knicks did to Larry reputation, however, can't prove any of that.

I do not even believe I used this as an issue. Only George Karl knows why he kept in two starters at that point of the game. I do know this, when that kind of things happen in a HS or college game we make all kinds of judgments about these types of situations. I know some people made a similar conclusion when the Ohio college team was blown out and allowed 200+ points in a game.

Originally Posted by Old School

As far as showtime. The NBA is all about showtime, monster dunks, spectacular dunks, etc. Players are getting paid million of dollars and the fans are paying top dollar to see this action. They should come out to compete every night or expect to get whoop pretty good. I still don't think Denver was pouring it on as bad as the Knicks are making it out to be. I think the Laker's was pouring it on when they left Kobie in the game to score 81 points. Now, I can see that type of foul on Kobie that night, damn, too bad Isiah wasn't coaching that team. That's what I call running it up! That's the unwritten code that you speak of.

This is all nice, but when you do things that may be perceived of "showing up" your opponent, you will get a very negative reaction to these kind of situations. This obviously is what might have sparked the flagrant foul end of this incident.

Originally Posted by Old School

What we had here, was not a failure to communicate, but some young men overreacting to the situation (btw, foul was a F1, debatable F2) and a coach who took it personally. Isiah is not a good coach to me, imho. Guaranteed, you will see more stuff like this from him this season.

See what from him? See him tell his players to play hard? Even you are admitting that you feel it was not a flagrent 2 foul, so what did he do? I disagree that this was not a Flagrant 2 foul, but that is why you and I were watching the game and not on the floor.

Peace

[OHBBREF]

A week ago we were talking about a team that was taking a 230 to 78 aZZ woopin and nobody was fouling anyone flagrantly or for that matter realy whining about how bad they got beat - and they were playing up a division.
Yes it was college - not the pros- but it really doesn't mater - If you are on the floor your are there to compete if on that day you get beat by 50 or 10 that is the way it goes live with it - to be so poor a sport as to cry or threaten that you will hurt somebody if they run up the score on you- you deserve to get the score run up on you.

Take your whoopin's like a man, not the over paid babies you turn out to be.
let's not even talk about the suit about the technical fouls because they can't demonstrutively complain about calls anymore.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Great. You're entitled to your opinion but so am I and I still disagree. I do not think Collins would have been ejected if the fight had not occurred. Robinson is signalling two shots in the video. He is not signalling an ejection as you stated in your post. That is very clear.

Well just to let you have a more in depth watching of the fight I got another youtube playing of the fight with commentary and also you can hear the cadence of the whistles. There is no doubt in my mind he was getting ejected. Anytime you wind up and swing that hard and hit a player in the head, especially the head that is a flagrant 2. I saw Robbie doing no such thing as signaling 2 shots. but I will just let you listen to this for yourself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LoFFjeVAV...elated&search=

P.S. listen to how loud the shot from Carmelo to Mardy Collins is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

A week ago we were talking about a team that was taking a 230 to 78 aZZ woopin and nobody was fouling anyone flagrantly or for that matter realy whining about how bad they got beat - and they were playing up a division.
Yes it was college - not the pros- but it really doesn't mater - If you are on the floor your are there to compete if on that day you get beat by 50 or 10 that is the way it goes live with it - to be so poor a sport as to cry or threaten that you will hurt somebody if they run up the score on you- you deserve to get the score run up on you.

This all sounds wonderful, but I have read hear many times about how behavior is perceived as unsportsmanlike when the winning team does things to purposely humiliate the opponent. Whether it is pressing all game long in a big time blowout, to even the way they celebrate a great play. I hope that you are the first person to tell a younger official this when they come here and ask "Can I T up a coach for......." some type of behavior that mirrored the events proceeding the fight in this game. Since the NBA players are role models, do not complain when the very same feelings take place at the local JH game.

Peace

[OHBBREF]

My comments are based solely on what I have heard here and seen in the video. I have no Knowledge of anything else that transpired.
Having said that even if there were fancy dunks or pressing the whole game there is nothing illegal about those actions if done within the confines of the rules and they are not considered unsporting acts.
If they commit an unsporting act as defined by the rules -taunting etc. during a blowout victory they should be punished for it - just as the player should be punnished for the hard or flagrant foul - however you see it.
This is a case where you let the officials do their job take your whoopin like a man and come back and play better another day having learned a lesson.

I do respect you comments JR and I expect to be held to mine in the future.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all I do not care if you buy it or not. I was not asking for your approval to my position. I was only stating my opinion that was pretty much it.

Are we getting a little defensive here? I agree, that is it...

I do not even believe I used this as an issue. Only George Karl knows why he kept in two starters at that point of the game.

Of course you didn't, I did!

This is all nice, but when you do things that may be perceived of "showing up" your opponent, you will get a very negative reaction to these kind of situations.

Agree with this statement, but not in case. Score was not indicative that they where showing off. I think this may be where we disagree the most. The NBA is all about entertainment, and showtime is what the fans come and pay a very hefty, hefty, hefty (up to $600 per seat) price to see. I want to see Carmelo get off, he is a superstar and I want to see him in the game all the way to the end. The same if it was Lebron James or Michael Jordan. The Knicks got no business getting all upset ruining everybody good time because they can't take a little butt whoop-in. Let's face it man. They acted like little kids. Isiah acted like a little spoil child, and that attitude spread around his team and next thing you know, we got an all out brawl. Next thing you know, we got retaliations like this happening all over the country. Isiah is got to be smarter than this. I'm sorry, he's got to be smarter than this! Let's be clear, Isiah started this. If we can't agree here, than we are done talking. Isiah got to keep his personal feeling in check until after the game. He's not a player anymore. I don't want to see him lose his job as a coach but I think more about the message he just sent out around the country. We don't need this sh!t coming from his position. If he's going to act like a sore loser everytime he gets a little beat up, then he doesn't need to be in that position. The Knicks deserve better....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

Are we getting a little defensive here? I agree, that is it...

Of course you didn't, I did!

Defensive? Who are you to me? The point is I did not ask you to buy anything. If you do not agree with my position then oh well.

Originally Posted by Old School

Agree with this statement, but not in case. Score was not indicative that they where showing off. I think this may be where we disagree the most. The NBA is all about entertainment, and showtime is what the fans come and pay a very hefty, hefty, hefty (up to $600 per seat) price to see. I want to see Carmelo get off, he is a superstar and I want to see him in the game all the way to the end. The same if it was Lebron James or Michael Jordan. The Knicks got no business getting all upset ruining everybody good time because they can't take a little butt whoop-in. Let's face it man. They acted like little kids.

You are right, it is a business. And in any business if you treat people that you have to work with or deal with in that business and you treat them in what is perceived as unprofessional, you will likely suffer some consequences as a result. Now the NBA most of this is dealt with on the court and in most people's view, but in other aspects of life it happens behind close doors. We talk about it hear all the time when people complain they live in a political association or they did not get a shot based on something they are not aware of. It is not about entertainment when you are a participant of an industry. You will have to face these same people again; you do not want to burn bridges if you do not have to.

Originally Posted by Old School

Isiah acted like a little spoil child, and that attitude spread around his team and next thing you know, we got an all out brawl. Next thing you know, we got retaliations like this happening all over the country. Isiah is got to be smarter than this. I'm sorry, he's got to be smarter than this! Let's be clear, Isiah started this. If we can't agree here, than we are done talking. Isiah got to keep his personal feeling in check until after the game. He's not a player anymore. I don't want to see him lose his job as a coach but I think more about the message he just sent out around the country. We don't need this sh!t coming from his position. If he's going to act like a sore loser everytime he gets a little beat up, then he doesn't need to be in that position. The Knicks deserve better....

I am not sure what Isiah had to do with the fight no more than George Karl did. That fight was based on the reaction of all the parties directly involved. If you do not like Isiah that is your right, but it has nothing to do with the fight that took place. Remember Isiah is a Hall of Fame player talking to a potential Hall of Fame player. I think he is in a much better position to tell a young player what to do despite what team he was on. He has much more of a right to do so than Karl if you ask me.
Also I think as usual we over-react to these situations and make them into bigger issues. If you were really old school you would remember at another time when fighting in the NBA was a regular occurrence. Now it barely happens and the only incident we can talk about was over a year old. I can remember specifically when Dr. J and Larry Bird, two of the biggest stars at the time got into fisticuffs in the 80s. I remember big time fights that took place with some of the biggest stars of the day. I do not know if you even have a chance to listen to Norm Van Lear formally of the Chicago Bulls talk and was in the same backcourt with Jerry Sloan (current coach of the Utah Jazz) and Norm advocates putting someone into a wall almost every other comment when he gives analysis of Bulls and NBA games. I have been listening and watching Van Lear for years as he was on TV most of the Jordan year's runs for championships and he was making comments all the time about being tough and talks about what they would do to players of today's games.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Remember Isiah is a Hall of Fame player talking to a potential Hall of Fame player. I think he is in a much better position to tell a young player what to do despite what team he was on. He has much more of a right to do so than Karl if you ask me.

C'mon Jeff, this is silly. On the floor Thomas has no business telling an opponent what to do. You said it yourself, it's a business and these people are competing for tons of money. The young ones do need to get help & advice from the vets. There are times when I give friendly advice to young people that work for other companies that are just coming up in my business. But I would never, ever consider telling a competitor what to do when I have a stake in the outcome. Never. Depending on the situation to do so would fall somewhere between just plain f'ing the kid and doing something illegal. IMO Isaiah f'ed Carmello. He planted a seed "hey, kid, stay away from the basket if you know what's good for you" and that's what he over-reacted to. If Thomas would have just sat down and taken his beating like a man none of this would have happened. But he couldn't, because he's under enourmous pressure and his job is on the line. So he dragged in 10 other people. This wasn't about teaching the young ones how to act. It was about Isaiah Thomas saving his own pathetic @ss.

Think about this: what if the Knicks were down by 2 when Isaiah told Carmello he would be smart to stay away from the basket?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right, it is a business. And in any business if you treat people that you have to work with or deal with in that business and you treat them in what is perceived as unprofessional, you will likely suffer some consequences as a result.

People get treated unprofessionally everynight in the NBA, they wolf on each other all night, every night. That is the nature of the business and these athletes get paid a lot of money to deal with just that. And to boot, they all get there moments in the spotlight too! I totally disagree with your position here. Got an idea. These athletes make enough money to go hire a psychiatrist to help them deal with their frustrations.

I am not sure what Isiah had to do with the fight no more than George Karl did. That fight was based on the reaction of all the parties directly involved. If you do not like Isiah that is your right, but it has nothing to do with the fight that took place. Remember Isiah is a Hall of Fame player talking to a potential Hall of Fame player. I think he is in a much better position to tell a young player what to do despite what team he was on. He has much more of a right to do so than Karl if you ask me.

No doubt here, I agree totally. But Isiah is not acting in the roll of a player anymore. He is acting now as a coach. No doubt he has earned the right, but also, what comes with that right is an even greater responsibility. I'm sure you can acknowledge that. Case in point: when I coached, and yes I coached men. The opposition had a superstar come in from out of town that we had no answer for. He was lighting us up. Late in the 2nd half I called a TO and told my team this guy is killing us, we got to stop him, if not we're going to lose this game. My big guy who went about 6'6 -255lbs plus. When said superstar came down the lane for another layup, my big guy cold-cocked him! Fist right to the body, put him on his back. I immediately called another TO to clarified what I meant. My point is, it was so easy for me as a coach to send the wrong message to my players. They picked this up without me even saying it! You have to be very careful with how you phrase things, your disposition, everything, when you are a leader of young over energized men. Along with great power comes an even greater responsibility. I want to win but not that way.

Of course I remember the old days of the NBA when Darrel Dr.Dunk Dawkins squared off with Marcus Lucas center court. I'd like to think that we have progressed beyond those days of handling our issues in a public forum like that. Don't you think there is enough violence in the black community now. We don't need our bestowed upon NBA roll models relating to this type of behavior on the TV to handle their differences. Isiah was wrong to provoke such a thing and the sad thing is, I don't even think he gets it. I know you don't....

Peace to you.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Great. You're entitled to your opinion but so am I and I still disagree. I do not think Collins would have been ejected if the fight had not occurred. Robinson is signalling two shots in the video. He is not signalling an ejection as you stated in your post. That is very clear.

Robinson is not signalling two shots, he's signalling flagarant two.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

C'mon Jeff, this is silly. On the floor Thomas has no business telling an opponent what to do. You said it yourself, it's a business and these people are competing for tons of money. The young ones do need to get help & advice from the vets. There are times when I give friendly advice to young people that work for other companies that are just coming up in my business. But I would never, ever consider telling a competitor what to do when I have a stake in the outcome. Never.

First of all let us not compare completely the NBA with yours and my business or professional life. Also what you would do is not what I would do are not the same thing. I talk to a lot of people that work in other companies or in other industries and if I feel I want to share some information in conversation that might help someone, I will share that information. That is the kind of person I am. I am not talking things specific to my business, but help someone with making a decision (leaving a company or finding a new job as an example) or anything I might know about or have experienced that can help someone. People have done that for me and I feel life is a gift and I like to give back because there were people who gave back to me when they did not have to. Now that is me, you can do what you want to.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Depending on the situation to do so would fall somewhere between just plain f'ing the kid and doing something illegal. IMO Isaiah f'ed Carmello. He planted a seed "hey, kid, stay away from the basket if you know what's good for you" and that's what he over-reacted to. If Thomas would have just sat down and taken his beating like a man none of this would have happened. But he couldn't, because he's under enourmous pressure and his job is on the line. So he dragged in 10 other people. This wasn't about teaching the young ones how to act. It was about Isaiah Thomas saving his own pathetic @ss.

If that is what happen, why has no players said that? Melo does not owe Isiah anything as far as I know. I am sure MJ tells Melo things we have no idea about and likely will have a conversation with Melo or already has. You or I will never know for sure.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Think about this: what if the Knicks were down by 2 when Isaiah told Carmello he would be smart to stay away from the basket?

Coaches and players interact often in the NBA or many other leagues. So what? You are so focused on what he said. If the NBA felt he did something, he would have been suspended or fined at the very least. David Stern has suspended other coaches for situations similar. I am sure players on the Nuggets were asked by the league about the situation and the league would have taken action. Remember, the NBA did fine both teams $500,000. I am sure there were things talked about on both sides that were addressed.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

People get treated unprofessionally everynight in the NBA, they wolf on each other all night, every night. That is the nature of the business and these athletes get paid a lot of money to deal with just that. And to boot, they all get there moments in the spotlight too! I totally disagree with your position here. Got an idea. These athletes make enough money to go hire a psychiatrist to help them deal with their frustrations.

Why are you so focused on the money they make? Are you jealous? Are you mad that you did not put in the time to make that kind of money? I am not sure what the money they make has much to do with this at all. This is a league where there are things that go on in the league just like the NFL, NASCAR, the NHL or Major League Baseball. Just listen to veterans talk about rookies and what they think when conflict happens in any of these sports. There are things expected in all professional sports leagues that you would not understand until you are there. I know there are things expected at the NCAA level that are not expected at the HS level and if those "professional" expectations are violated, it can cause serious conflict. And the main people making the money are the coaches (at least legally).

Originally Posted by Old School

No doubt here, I agree totally. But Isiah is not acting in the roll of a player anymore. He is acting now as a coach. No doubt he has earned the right, but also, what comes with that right is an even greater responsibility. I'm sure you can acknowledge that. Case in point: when I coached, and yes I coached men. The opposition had a superstar come in from out of town that we had no answer for. He was lighting us up. Late in the 2nd half I called a TO and told my team this guy is killing us, we got to stop him, if not we're going to lose this game. My big guy who went about 6'6 -255lbs plus. When said superstar came down the lane for another layup, my big guy cold-cocked him! Fist right to the body, put him on his back. I immediately called another TO to clarified what I meant. My point is, it was so easy for me as a coach to send the wrong message to my players. They picked this up without me even saying it! You have to be very careful with how you phrase things, your disposition, everything, when you are a leader of young over energized men. Along with great power comes an even greater responsibility. I want to win but not that way.

You have the right to your opinion but so do I. Unless you coached, played or was a front office person in the NBA, I think knowing what responsibility someone has at least for me falls on deaf ears. You can give me all the war-stories of what you did when you coached, it still is not going to change my opinion and frankly I am not trying to change your opinion either.

Originally Posted by Old School

Of course I remember the old days of the NBA when Darrel Dr.Dunk Dawkins squared off with Marcus Lucas center court. I'd like to think that we have progressed beyond those days of handling our issues in a public forum like that. Don't you think there is enough violence in the black community now. We don't need our bestowed upon NBA roll models relating to this type of behavior on the TV to handle their differences. Isiah was wrong to provoke such a thing and the sad thing is, I don't even think he gets it. I know you don't....

First of all I do not know what this has to do with the Black community. Several weeks ago there was a fight at a basketball game not even close to what happen in Detroit about 2 years ago, but it took place oversees. There were flares thrown by fans and total chaos and violence all over the place. The last time I checked, I did not see any Black people in the stands during this that display of violence. I think there is too much violence in all societies and around the world. And as someone that grew up in a Black Family, as much as I admired many athletes, they were not my role models. Of course there was a part of me that wanted to be like a Willie Stargell or a Hank Aaron or a Jackie Robinson, it was not because of what they only did on a field. I admired those people because of what the way they carried themselves but my biggest role models were people I saw every day. I was a kid when Charles Barkley made his "role model" commercial with NIKE and I can tell you I was in 100% agreement with his position.

Peace

[Adam]

The fact remains these guys get paid tons of money because they're role models. There is nothing instrically valuable in being able to put a 9 inch ball through an 18 inch ring. However, when you add the fact that these skills are admired by millions, and the talents enjoyed by millions, the abilities become valuable; 8 figures' worth.

No, I'm not jealous (well, maybe a little.) However, with the money comes a responsibility. Most of those guys do what they can to meet those responsibilities; but the public image they build helps increase their value to their team. So, it's a nice little upward spiral for them.