flags on our uni's

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


Since ...officiating organizations are not patriotic organizations,

Says who? Is the American Legion a patriotic organization? Of course. What about the Boy Scouts? Yes, pledging to do your duty to your country is part of the Scout oath. What about Congress? They take an oath to uphold the Constitution. In my eyes, that makes them a patriotic organization, so members of Congress can affix flag patches to their suits. OK, that suit part may be stretching it.

The point is - during a time of war (and this is as much a war as the "Korean police action" was, that is, no formal declaration), I believe any organization can justifiably add to its charter the desire to express patriotism and make that part of its mission.

If, according to a strict interpretation of the flag code, affixing a US flag patch to your work clothing to express your patriotism is wrong, then the flag code should be changed. BTW - do you really think anyone is going to enforce it these days?

[Tweets]

We wear the flag to remeber the fallen in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. We wear the flag to remember those now flying over Afganastan who will fight and die for the cause. We wear the flag because we have the right to disagree on where and how to wear the flag. [/B][/QUOTE]

THAT'S exactly what I'm sayin'

[Oz Referee]

As one of the few non-Americans here, I must admit that I find tis issue somehwat amusing (no offence intended).

I hate to admit that I was employed for several years by McDonald's. I distinctly remember that we had a lengthy (around 4 pages) procedure for how to store, fold, fly and maintain the Stars&Stripes.

As an Australian this is quite weird - we have (to the best of my knowledge) no formalised ethos for how to act towards the Australian flag. If you set the flag on fire in Sydney, people would be understandably upset - but I doubt you would go to gaol. In the same way, Australian flags are flown in storms, at night, and often in a poor condition.

I am not attempting to say that the patrioism shown by Americans towards their flag is wrong, it is just totally foreign (no pun intended) to most Australians.

As far as putting the flag on referees uniforms, I have two points to make:

1. Is refereeing a "patriotic" activity? Probably not. Is refereeing not a "patriotic" activity? Probably not. Is the flag allowed to be put on referees uniforms - sure.

2. Who cares? If you are opposed to having the flag on your uniform, don't. If you want to show it, put it on. I think either each local association or the central governing body of American referees, or even the Federal government should issue an edict stating that any offcial can put the flag on their uniform if they so wish, and then state where and how big the flag should be. It should also say that there will be no penalty to any official that decides for any reason, not to have their flag on their uniform.

But hey, that's just the humble opinion of a FEEBLE referee from down-under.

Peace.

[Brian Watson]

Oz I think we have a different attitude for our flag because of all the crap we had to go through to "get it".

It truly is a symbol of our freedom and reminds all of us daily of our fathers, grandfathers, and stories of great grandfathers who laced 'em up and defended our right to fly it. To us, by showing respect to the flag, we can give our respects to all those who died making sure we could fly it.

This is not to say the way other countries act toward their flag is wrong, we just put more emphasis on it.

Having said that, as most of us know legal codes, generally, reflect he prevailing social mores and attitudes of the day. I am positive that when the Flag Code was written, it would have appalled people to think of putting the flag on their clothing (or cars, or overpasses). But, this was also the same time when men wore top hats and gloves to work, women never wore pants, and you absolutely could not wear white after labor day.

Times have changed, and the law, by definition, has not. What was once thought to be blasphemes to the flag is now considered "right". I am sure the flag code does not address the car flags I see everywhere, or flags hanging from overpasses, but this does not make it wrong. The definition of patriotism has changed, for the better I think, and I now think it is proper for everyone to respectfully wear the flag on their clothes, or not to. To display it on their property, cars, or businesses, or not to.


Remember, that is why we get to fly it. If I work with someone who is not wearing it, will I get upset, no. Maybe they can't sew, maybe (like me) they don't think the material on their shirt is strong enough for it. There are a million reason not to, and quite frankly it is none of my business that you don't. As long as being an American is in your heart, that is all that matters.

PS - I am now sending an email to my Senators asking them to amend the Flag Code, looks like it is time to update it.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
But, this was also the same time when....women never wore pants

Ah, how I yearn for those days of yore.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have been reading the posts about US flags on our officiating uniforms. The first thing that we all should be doing is to read United States Code Title 36, also known as the Flag Code, specically Chapter 10, Section 176(j).

This section states that "no part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

Since, athletic teams and officiating organizations are not patriotic organizations, we should not be wearing flag patches on our officiationg uniforms nor should athletic teams be wearing flag patches on their uniforms.

This has nothing about being patriotic or unpatriotic. I just do not think that it is appropriate to wear the flag in such a manner and I think that Flag Code backs up my belief.

I don't think attaching a patch makes it part of the uniform. I read this entire flag code last week and felt that it meant that you shouldn't make the actual uniform resemble the flag---we shouldn't change our black stripes to red and add a field of blue with stars on our backs.

The NF has already approved, in past years, the application of a 2"x3" flag patch on player's uniforms. No one has made an issue of that. Why should it be any different now when the motivation and desire to show allegiance are greater than it has been in decades.



[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 9th, 2001 at 07:01 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have been reading the posts about US flags on our officiating uniforms. The first thing that we all should be doing is to read United States Code Title 36, also known as the Flag Code, specically Chapter 10, Section 176(j).

This section states that "no part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

Since, athletic teams and officiating organizations are not patriotic organizations, we should not be wearing flag patches on our officiationg uniforms nor should athletic teams be wearing flag patches on their uniforms.

This has nothing about being patriotic or unpatriotic. I just do not think that it is appropriate to wear the flag in such a manner and I think that Flag Code backs up my belief.

Where in the code is the term "patriotic organizations"
defined? The only other use of the word "patriotic"
that I could find in the code is as follows:


(a) It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.

Patriotic effect? Patriotic organization?
It's my considered opinion that *any* organization has the
right to claim itself a "patriotic organization" and
can therefore wear a flag patch. Just as anyone can fly the
flag at night for "patriotic effect" if properly lighted.
No need to argue this endlessly, there's no authorative
reference to base an argument on, either way. It's what
we call an opinion.

"You flying that flag at night for patriotic effect, young
man?"
"Uhmm, no officer, I just kinda like the way it looks
lit up at night."
"Well, you better take it down then or I'll have to take
you in for violating Public Law 94-344."

Yeah right.

BTW, you can check the code out yourself, I posted the web
site here in this thread quite early on.

[rainmaker]

I'm sorry but I am just blown away by all this. The logic you guys are using escapes me completely. I'm free, as long as I'm free your way? How can it possibly be freedom worth "defending" if it goes out the window when the first bomb flies? I'm not saying that anything should go, especially not in terms of desecration or being offensive, but what does any of this have to do with basketball? My opinions about my country, my country's enemies, my country's friends, or anything else of national politics should have no bearing on my basketball. That's freedom. Associations requiring refs to wear flags, or even recommending, feels like prayer in the public schools. It sounds good on paper, but when you start to think about it, it gets real dicey. Whose prayer? Which God? Which form? Kneeling how? Facing where? It is outlawed for a reason, it's unconstitutional, and so should the requirement to express political views be.

If we start requiring certain expressions, we sink to the level of the Taliban, forcing people into lock step uniformity, rather than freeing people to pursue their own happiness. Over and over again, other political expressions have been "un-required" by the Supreme Court, such as the flag salute, the singing of the National Anthem and so forth and so on. Why would requiring or even recommending a flag on our uniforms be any different?



[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 15th, 2001 at 08:50 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'm sorry but I am just blown away by all this. The logic you guys are using escapes me completely. I'm free, as long as I'm free your way? How can it possibly be freedom worth "defending" if it goes out the window when the first bomb flies? I'm not saying that anything should go, especially not in terms of desecration or being offensive, but what does any of this have to do with basketball? My opinions about my country, my country's enemies, my country's friends, or anything else of national politics should have no bearing on my basketball. That's freedom. Associations requiring refs to wear flags, or even recommending, feels like prayer in the public schools. It sounds good on paper, but when you start to think about it, it gets real dicey. Whose prayer? Which God? Which form? Kneeling how? Facing where? It is outlawed for a reason, it's unconstitutional, and so should the requirement to express political views be.

If we start requiring certain expressions, we sink to the level of the Taliban, forcing people into lock step uniformity, rather than freeing people to pursue their own happiness. Over and over again, other political expressions have been "un-required" by the Supreme Court, such as the flag salute, the singing of the National Anthem and so forth and so on. Why would requiring or even recommending a flag on our uniforms be any different?



[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 15th, 2001 at 08:50 PM]

Look, feel free to wear or not wear whatever you like on
your stripes, but again I ask are you opposed to an
assocation or league requiring you to wear an emblem
in general? When you get to the NCAA D1 tournament will you
refuse to wear the round black patch that says "NCAA" on
it because you are defending your rights and freedoms?
Finally, please do not insult those that lost their lives
and those that will lose their lives by spouting inane
nonsense about us sinking "to the level of the Taliban".
Doing so makes you sound very unaware of the realities we
face.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker
... My opinions about my country, my country's enemies, my country's friends, or anything else of national politics should have no bearing on my basketball. That's freedom. Associations requiring refs to wear flags, or even recommending, feels like prayer in the public schools. It sounds good on paper, but when you start to think about it, it gets real dicey. Whose prayer? Which God? Which form? Kneeling how? Facing where?

There is only one God. We all just have different understandings and opinions of what he is like and what he requires. Even when there are organizations or meetings of many faiths, they seem to find a common ground in having a prayer that is acceptable.

It is outlawed for a reason, it's unconstitutional, and so should the requirement to express political views be.

The difference is public schools versus private officials' organizations. The supreme court has upheld right of private organizations to establish requirements more confining than the constitution allow for public institutions. The constitution doesn't allow the government to outlaw such things. (The recent Boy Scouts ruling, for example.) Futher, the unconstitionality of prayer in schools is marginal. It was a split decision, if I remember right. It was constitutional for 200 years before some more liberal judges came to the bench and interpreted it differently than all their predecessors.

... Over and over again, other political expressions have been "un-required" by the Supreme Court, such as the flag salute, the singing of the National Anthem and so forth and so on. Why would requiring or even recommending a flag on our uniforms be any different?

The supreme court rulings on "un-required" it for public instutions. Their rulings have no bearing on private instutions.

For that matter, it seems like the association that is requiring this took a VOTE and it was nearly unanimous (all present voted for it, with a few absences). That's about a democratic and free as it gets. The association as a body chose to do it.

This country was founded on Christian principle and by Christian people. The country's founding fathers are probably rolling in the graves over the recent Supreme Court's desecration of the prinicples on which this country formed.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 16th, 2001 at 12:39 PM]