Penalty for Delay

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Then why do we have Correctable Errors in the first place?

Failure to call a foul or violation that should be called is not a correctable error. It is either called at the time of the infraction or it is not called.

Correctable errors all deal with the penalty portion of a called foul (or counting a basket as the incorrect number of points on a try).

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Failure to call a foul or violation that should be called is not a correctable error. It is either called at the time of the infraction or it is not called.

Correctable errors all deal with the penalty portion of a called foul (or counting a basket as the incorrect number of points on a try).

Apples and Oranges.

We have already established that we called and reported the second warning. In your example there is no call.

By rule the second warning results in a technical foul. A rule which was inadvertently set aside and results in free throws.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Apples and Oranges.

We have already established that we called and reported the second warning. In your example there is no call.

By rule the second warning results in a technical foul. A rule which was inadvertently set aside and results in free throws.

You make some good points. But, what about a player who enters who is not in the book? If the scorer adds the player, and the ball becomes live, it's too late to penalize.

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You make some good points. But, what about a player who enters who is not in the book? If the scorer adds the player, and the ball becomes live, it's too late to penalize.

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

Now you make some good points. But, what about a request for an excess time-out which is "Penalized when discovered" (10-7 Penalty).

I'm just thinking of the situation when you report a foul to the table (you don't realize it's the seventh). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the seventh foul, so you shoot the one and one.

Similarly, you report the delay (you don't realize it's the second). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the second delay. I think you shoot the FTs.

[Camron Rust]

You make some very good points Kajun and my even be correct (I have a suspicion that you may be...but I'm not yet convinced).

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Now you make some good points. But, what about a request for an excess time-out which is "Penalized when discovered" (10-7 Penalty)..

But that is only penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live after the timeout. Once the ball is live, it's too late.

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

I'm just thinking of the situation when you report a foul to the table (you don't realize it's the seventh). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the seventh foul, so you shoot the one and one.
)

In that case, the foul was called but not properly penalized.

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Similarly, you report the delay (you don't realize it's the second). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the second delay. I think you shoot the FTs.

The rules specify a foul should be called but it wasn't...not quite the same as being called and improperly penalized. There are a lot of things that the rules say should be a technical foul but we don't always call them...can we change our mind during the next possession and go back and call a T on any of them?

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But that is only penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live after the timeout. Once the ball is live, it's too late.?

That's not what 10-7 Penalty says. It says "Penalized when discovered."

The rules specify a foul should be called but it wasn't...not quite the same as being called and improperly penalized. There are a lot of things that the rules say should be a technical foul but we don't always call them...can we change our mind during the next possession and go back and call a T on any of them?

I see your point, but my point is that we intended to call the rules infraction as evidenced by the warning. The only reason we didn't issue the T was because we didn't realize it was the second warning. We didn't consciously make a decision not to issue the T. We didn't issue it because the scorer didn't inform us that the warning was the second. Just like the 7th foul that we didn't shoot on.

And I have to keep going back to the definition of a correctable error, "Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a) Failure to award a merited free throw." which provides guidance in this situation.

I see a difference in this situation and not calling a common foul, technical foul or any other rule violations, because we actually made the call (the warning) but applied the rule incorrectly and now have an opportunity to correct it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

And I have to keep going back to the definition of a correctable error, "Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a) Failure to award a merited free throw." which provides guidance in this situation.

Just to stick my two cents in - I wonder if the difference is:
a)Failure to award a merited free throw, which is not the same as:
a)Failure to call a technical foul, which results in free throw(s)

Subtle difference. The free throw is not merited until after the T is called. In the case of the 2 shots vs. 1-and-1, the foul had been called, but the proper free throws had not been administered. If you don't call the foul, you can't go back and correct the free throws, because the foul hadn't been called. A missing step in the process, so to speak.

I think the rules committee picked very specific examples as to what can be corrected, just to avoid the possibility of officials using the "correctable error" reason to go back and fix whatever they want. Once an illegal sub comes in the game, you can't correct that. If there's a timeout request that results in an inadvertant whistle, you can't correct that as well. I can see your point, but it doesn't quite fit into the specific listed correctable errors.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

That's not what 10-7 Penalty says. It says "Penalized when discovered."



I see your point, but my point is that we intended to call the rules infraction as evidenced by the warning. The only reason we didn't issue the T was because we didn't realize it was the second warning. We didn't consciously make a decision not to issue the T. We didn't issue it because the scorer didn't inform us that the warning was the second. Just like the 7th foul that we didn't shoot on.

And I have to keep going back to the definition of a correctable error, "Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a) Failure to award a merited free throw." which provides guidance in this situation.

I see a difference in this situation and not calling a common foul, technical foul or any other rule violations, because we actually made the call (the warning) but applied the rule incorrectly and now have an opportunity to correct it.

Good points, Cajun but I believe the merited f. throws would occur after you place your hands together for the T instead of when we were notified of a 2nd warning. If we expect coaches and players to realize that it is a technical for any second offense without consulting with the scorer, then isn't it logical to expect the official to know that he should have administered a T. Failing to administer a T is not the same as setting aside a merited f. throw. IMO.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

HMMMM. I'm not buying this. Penalized when discovered is a phrase that seems to apply here, and with a few of the other sitch's in this thread.

I gotta keep a rule book with me when I read this forum. My head hurts.

[Raymond]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing but I think here is the comparison Kajun is trying to put across:

• common foul committed (7th team foul) but scorer doesn't notify officials one-and-one should be shot. Failure to award merited free throws. Correctable error situation

• 2nd delay warning administered. Scorer doesn't notify officials that this is 2nd warning and technical foul should be shot. Is this a failure to award merited free throws?

Kajun, Would this be the concept your are trying to get across?

Oops, just saw that you already posed the same scenario. At least give me credit for reading your mind.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Kajun, Would this be the concept your are trying to get across?

Oops, just saw that you already posed the same scenario. At least give me credit for reading your mind.

Thanks for the P.S. I thought it was my Kajun English coming out again.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

HMMMM. I'm not buying this. Penalized when discovered is a phrase that seems to apply here, and with a few of the other sitch's in this thread.

Read 3.4B and you'll buy it.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Read 3.4B and you'll buy it.

Yep. I bought it! The book is definitive on that situation.

I'm still not clear on the original question. Did I miss something?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Yep. I bought it! The book is definitive on that situation.

I'm still not clear on the original question. Did I miss something?

No. Some think the "error" can be corrected anytime (until the officials leave the floor). Some think it can be corrected in the "correctable error" timeframe. Some think it can be corrected until the ball becomes live.

Absent any definitive ruling by the FED, I think that's where we'll have to leave it.