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Old Sun Oct 15, 2006, 11:06am
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at disposal?

In reading the rule and case book I am a little unclear what is meant by "at the disposal of the player" for calling a time out on a throw in by team B (rule 5, sec8, art3b). Would that basically mean once I start my 5 second count or even before that? From the picture in the illustrated, and verbage in the case book it sounds like the ball just has to be near A1, not in their hands to prevent team B from calling a time out, correct? Thanks.
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Old Sun Oct 15, 2006, 11:09am
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Disposal is defined in 4-4-7. The count begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team. This is the exact same instant when the other team can no longer be granted a TO.

There has been some disagreement here in the past about when that exact moment is following a basket, but whenever the official decides it is, one action begins and the other cannot occur.
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Old Sun Oct 15, 2006, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Disposal is defined in 4-4-7. The count begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team. This is the exact same instant when the other team can no longer be granted a TO.

There has been some disagreement here in the past about when that exact moment is following a basket, but whenever the official decides it is, one action begins and the other cannot occur.
The FED finally made a definitive ruling this year. It's posted on their web site and will probably be in the case book next year. Look at Situation 9 under this link:

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/10/2006..._rules_in.aspx

SITUATION 9: With less than one minute remaining in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end-line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out.
RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in count does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

So....it looks like you can grant the TO until the thrower is actually OOB and ready to throw the ball in. Unless, of course, they are deliberately delaying going OOB.

For the record, when this play was still in doubt, Camron Rust took the position that the NFHS rulesmakers just agreed with. I didn't. One for Camron!
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Old Sun Oct 15, 2006, 05:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
The FED finally made a definitive ruling this year. It's posted on their web site and will probably be in the case book next year. Look at Situation 9 under this link:

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/10/2006..._rules_in.aspx

SITUATION 9: With less than one minute remaining in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end-line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out.
RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in count does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

So....it looks like you can grant the TO until the thrower is actually OOB and ready to throw the ball in. Unless, of course, they are deliberately delaying going OOB.

For the record, when this play was still in doubt, Camron Rust took the position that the NFHS rulesmakers just agreed with. I didn't. One for Camron!
Hey, I had to eventually get one right.
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Old Sun Oct 15, 2006, 06:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Hey, I had to eventually get one right.
Oh, Camron, you're way better than that. Why, I'll bet that eventually, you will have gotten two right!!
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2006, 08:35am
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"The throw-in count does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count."

What determines when the official is to begin the 5-second count? Is this judgment, or is it defined elsewhere? Thanks for any clarification.
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2006, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
"The throw-in count does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count."

What determines when the official is to begin the 5-second count? Is this judgment, or is it defined elsewhere? Thanks for any clarification.
That's what had been discussed here many times before. Some had argued that the ball is "at the disposal", and the count was to start, as soon as it drops through the net after the basket, which is when the team can take it. Others argued (and most had done in practice) that the count didn't start until after the player had the ball OOB and was ready to throw it in. This Situation 9 posted on the Fed. website now points towards the latter. I would think the reason they don't specify exactly when is to give us the judgement of being able to start the count sooner, if we feel the inbounding team might be trying to delay. For example, say team A is behind by only 1 after scoring, and there are 9 seconds left in the game. Team B might be "confused" as to who should handle the throw-in, and then slowly walk over to pick up the ball, maybe hand it to a teammate to let them throw it in, then the teammate hands it back and says, "No, I insist, you do the honors"...etc. all the time the clock is running. You get my drift? The official still gets the option of starting the count when they feel the team should be ready for the throw-in.
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2006, 09:32am
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Unclear but ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
"The throw-in count does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count."

What determines when the official is to begin the 5-second count? Is this judgment, or is it defined elsewhere? Thanks for any clarification.
I think its not really clear by rule, but common sense tells me to wait until I as the official determine/think its at the disposal.

At a camp I attended last year they said to wait until the ball was OOB.
Then if team B hesitated (to set up a play etc.,) begin the count.

Common sense can cover the plays that coaches teach. We were taught to toss the ball to the official and then when he hands it back etc., it takes a few seconds off the clock.

Also this might cover the play where two players act like neither wants to take the ball out and thus the official waits etc.,

I know players today don't think too much, but there are some coaches and teams who still do ...

I can see the POV from the NFHS, but then I also know that there are a lot of officials who want it all in black and white.

Our state meeting this year it was interpreted that we could call TO until the count was started. HOwever, when it starts is still up to the official and his interpretation.

Thanks
David
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2006, 11:29am
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Thanks for the responses and input, I understand it now and know how I will do it. As I mentioned on another post I have been away from officiating for two and a half years, and did not realize that it had already been discussed. Appreciate responding and helping me on an already (from the sounds of it) hashed out topic.

As an aside there have been a lot of changes to learn and adjust to!!!!!! Definite case of an old dog learning new tricks. As usually seems to be the case with officials, the referee's here in Utah have been great to make me feel welcome.
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Old Wed Oct 18, 2006, 12:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David B
Our state meeting this year it was interpreted that we could call TO until the count was started.
Did your association also decide that you would let the new Trail official grant the time-out? Otherwise his partners have to actually look at this official to see if he has begun a count. Will most people do this? What will be done if a partner grants a TO after the count has begun?

Of course, mandating that this one official be the sole granter of time-out requests in this situation is silly and contrary to the NFHS rules.

I'm just pointing out that this isn't going to be as simple as you might think.
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Old Wed Oct 18, 2006, 02:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Did your association also decide that you would let the new Trail official grant the time-out? Otherwise his partners have to actually look at this official to see if he has begun a count. Will most people do this? What will be done if a partner grants a TO after the count has begun?
Well, they (10 ballplayers and 2 head coaches) can request a TO in this situation from any official on the floor, so that official has to make up his/her mind whether to grant it. And you're right, the asked official should have to quickly look at the play to see where the ball is, and if they aren't the new trail, also look to see if a count has started. And....if they do grant the TO by mistake, you gotta go with that anyway.

Of course, you knew all this, but your points are well taken. Granting a TO can be hit-or-miss in this situation...especially when you let coaches request one also. It's basically just a straight judgment call anymore.
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Old Wed Oct 18, 2006, 10:03am
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I agree with that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Did your association also decide that you would let the new Trail official grant the time-out? Otherwise his partners have to actually look at this official to see if he has begun a count. Will most people do this? What will be done if a partner grants a TO after the count has begun?

Of course, mandating that this one official be the sole granter of time-out requests in this situation is silly and contrary to the NFHS rules.

I'm just pointing out that this isn't going to be as simple as you might think.

Yes it makes it easier for the administrating official; however, the other official now has something else to look for.

Thanks
David
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Old Wed Oct 18, 2006, 10:33am
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along these lines....

last week, A1 had the ball out of bounds, count was in progress, and several B players signaled time out. Partner granted the time out. He quickly realized his mistake and said, basically, "No, you can't have time out." A's ball. I said no, they get the time out now, even though it was not proper, the ball is now dead. There is no provision for not awarding a time out in this situation, is there?
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Old Wed Oct 18, 2006, 11:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
last week, A1 had the ball out of bounds, count was in progress, and several B players signaled time out. Partner granted the time out. He quickly realized his mistake and said, basically, "No, you can't have time out." A's ball. I said no, they get the time out now, even though it was not proper, the ball is now dead. There is no provision for not awarding a time out in this situation, is there?
You had 'er right, JAR. Case book play 5.8.3SitE is the exact same play.
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