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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:25am
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Case play 7.1.1 is not correct

I had a very interesting conversation at my basketball meeting last night. It turns out that case play 7.1.1 part (a) and (b) are not correct as written. Part (c) IS correct. It reads as follows:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
1)I had a very interesting conversation at my basketball meeting last night. It turns out that case play 7.1.1 part (a) and (b) are not correct as written. Part (c) IS correct. It reads as follows:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.
Are you kidding?

1) You're wrong. Case book plays 7.1.1A&B are correct as written.

2) Re: case book play 7.1.1.C--you've written it down wrong. You cited 7.1.1SitD above, not SitC....and there's nothing the matter with that case play either.

All three case plays are correct as written. How old is the case book that you're reading?
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.
I'll save you the trouble of asking.....

(a) A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and threw it back inbounds. When he then touched it in-bounds that is the same as legally touching a dribbled ball. Legal play
(b) A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and tossed it back in-bounds. Dribbling again after coming back inbounds is just legally continuing that dribble. It's an interrupted dribble, John. Legal play.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
I had a very interesting conversation at my basketball meeting last night. It turns out that case play 7.1.1 part (a) and (b) are not correct as written. Part (c) IS correct. It reads as follows:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.

OK, I give. Why do you think this is not right?
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
I had a very interesting conversation at my basketball meeting last night. It turns out that case play 7.1.1 part (a) and (b) are not correct as written. Part (c) IS correct. It reads as follows:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.
I see nothing wrong with case 7.1.1D. When I first read your post, I read it as "A1 ... tosses it to the back court." In that instance, it would be a violation (assuming the ball was in the front court to start with).
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:09am
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A hint:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I'll save you the trouble of asking.....

(a) A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and threw it back inbounds. When he then touched it in-bounds that is the same as legally touching a dribbled ball. Legal play
(b) A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and tossed it back in-bounds. Dribbling again after coming back inbounds is just legally continuing that dribble. It's an interrupted dribble, John. Legal play.
I will have to admit that I was skeptical at first, also. But..... the play is wrong......... I will give you a hint........ Jurassic Referee is on the right track when he says "A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and threw it back inbounds."
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
I will have to admit that I was skeptical at first, also. But..... the play is wrong......... I will give you a hint........ Jurassic Referee is on the right track when he says "A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and threw it back inbounds."
I think I know where you are going with this and that' s the rule about the dribbler touching the out of bounds line while dribbling. 9-3 (Note) "The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds." However, that does not apply to an interrupted dribble, which is what we have here.

4-15-5 "An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble."

4-15-6 "During an interrupted dribble: d. Out-of-bounds violation does not apply on the player involved in the interrupted dribble."

Last edited by Kajun Ref N Texas; Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 10:25am.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
I will have to admit that I was skeptical at first, also. But..... the play is wrong......... I will give you a hint........ Jurassic Referee is on the right track when he says "A1 started his dribble when he caught the ball and threw it back inbounds."
John, I'll give you a hint. The case book is right and you are wrong.

See rules 4-15-3, 4-15-5, 4-15-6(d).
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:47am
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Hey john,

there is no reason for you to make people irritated on this forum. If you think something is wrong then tell us what, why and any rule references you have. Do not just say the rules are wrong and tell everybody they can't see it.

You stated that you had a long discussion on your board about that rule so maybe if you stated your interpretation then we could debate it on here so we can all come to a logical interpretation that is legal according to the rules.

We are all on here to become better officials not to show off who knows the rules better
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 11:46am
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You also have to determine whether the player saved it from going out of bounds with a "controlled" save or a "batted" save. A controlled save is used in college to determine a reset of the shot clock in some instances and would also be used to determine if it would constitute a dribble. A batted save would not reset the shot clock and would not be considered a dribble, but for the most part we are not going to microdot and not let the player dribble on a save. If JTRICE ever gives the answer this could turn into a good discussion. Let's please stay on topic though and not get off on some tangent about making fun of someone. That seems to be happening alot or at least since I have started posting. Not meaning to be negative.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 12:01pm
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Discussion on case play 7.1.1 Situation D

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
I had a very interesting conversation at my basketball meeting last night. It turns out that case play 7.1.1 part (a) and (b) are not correct as written. Part (c) IS correct. It reads as follows:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.
First off...... I want to sincerely and emphatically apologize if I offended any official in any way with this question. This is NOT what I meant to do. I (thought) I was offering a situation to ponder to help us all with our officiating (and our test scores.)

Situation 7.1.1 Situation D part C....... states in its answer: "Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble....." Part C then goes on to explain (as we all know) how A1 cannot start another dribble.

The important part of this is that the case book says " ...the controlled toss of the ball...".

So.... this is NOT an interrupted dribble.

Finally, as we know, also, and it is stated on Page 56 of the Rule Book...Section 3 Article 2 NOTE: "The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds."

For what it is worth...... (and I admit it may not be worth much ) the Rules Committee has been notified of this information and I would bet we will see that case changed in next year's book.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
First off...... I want to sincerely and emphatically apologize if I offended any official in any way with this question. This is NOT what I meant to do. I (thought) I was offering a situation to ponder to help us all with our officiating (and our test scores.)

Situation 7.1.1 Situation D part C....... states in its answer: "Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble....." Part C then goes on to explain (as we all know) how A1 cannot start another dribble.

The important part of this is that the case book says " ...the controlled toss of the ball...".

So.... this is NOT an interrupted dribble.

Finally, as we know, also, and it is stated on Page 56 of the Rule Book...Section 3 Article 2 NOTE: "The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds."

For what it is worth...... (and I admit it may not be worth much ) the Rules Committee has been notified of this information and I would bet we will see that case changed in next year's book.
I disagree. This is pretty clearly (at least to me) an interrupted dribble (the ball "momentarily gets away from the dribbler") and therefore no change is needed, and the case book is still correct.

Last edited by Kajun Ref N Texas; Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 12:08pm.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
The important part of this is that the case book says " ...the controlled toss of the ball...".

So.... this is NOT an interrupted dribble.

Finally, as we know, also, and it is stated on Page 56 of the Rule Book...Section 3 Article 2 NOTE: "The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds."

For what it is worth...... (and I admit it may not be worth much ) the Rules Committee has been notified of this information and I would bet we will see that case changed in next year's book.
The problem I have with your opinion on this is not illegal to start a dribble over the line. The ruling that the NF has given in the past if during the dribble the ball handler steps on the line then it would be illegal. I think you are taking one part of the rule and trying to string them together. In my opinion your point does not wash. I do not think the NF or any other code that has similar rules intended to have your situation ruled as a violation. I think that would be overly technical to make such a call. It is always allowed for a player to save the ball while over the out of bounds lines. Please do not make this call.

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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 01:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTRICE
Situation 7.1.1 Situation D part C....... states in its answer: "Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble....." Part C then goes on to explain (as we all know) how A1 cannot start another dribble.

The important part of this is that the case book says " ...the controlled toss of the ball...".

So.... this is NOT an interrupted dribble.
I don't have my rule books in front of me, but I'm wondering if you might be confusing issues.

First, I think we all agree the controlled toss is the start of a dribble. In the case of an interrupted dribble, the player can't go get it, pick it up with both hands, and start another dribble. I believe that's what 7.1.1 Sit D(c) is addressing. However, if the player goes to the ball that's bounding away, and starts bouncing it without catching it first, that would be legal because it would be a continuation of the same dribble. Are you saying because the ball didn't bounce off the player's foot, or something similar, that is what makes your play not an interrupted dribble? If so, what part of the definition of interrupted dribble applies in your case, and why would it not be considered an interrupted dribble?
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I don't have my rule books in front of me, but I'm wondering if you might be confusing issues.

First, I think we all agree the controlled toss is the start of a dribble. In the case of an interrupted dribble, the player can't go get it, pick it up with both hands, and start another dribble. I believe that's what 7.1.1 Sit D(c) is addressing. However, if the player goes to the ball that's bounding away, and starts bouncing it without catching it first, that would be legal because it would be a continuation of the same dribble. Are you saying because the ball didn't bounce off the player's foot, or something similar, that is what makes your play not an interrupted dribble? If so, what part of the definition of interrupted dribble applies in your case, and why would it not be considered an interrupted dribble?
To support M&M,

Here is the interrupted dribble rule:

4-15-5 "An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble."

It appears to me, the Fed is considering Case 7.1.1D to be an interrupted dribble which makes the case book correct as written. The ball has momentarily gotten away from the dribbler. If not, he would still be holding the ball when he goes OB.

Last edited by Kajun Ref N Texas; Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 01:34pm.
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