Post Play

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by MidMadness

Do you allow a defender to get an elbow up on the post player if he is not pushing in any fashion??? Just leaning into each other a little?? or do you not allow anything?? Varsity boys...Thanks

What you are describing I let go if both post players can handle the contact.

[btaylor64]

This is hard because NFHS just puts this in their POE section every 1 out of 10 years, and college does not have great guidelines either.

In HS the norm seems to be that you can't put a forearm on a player regardless of whether you are using it to just hold your position or not, which I personally think is wrong, because the advantage is fully to the offensive player now because it makes it harder for the defensive player to hold his ground. JMO though.

In the college game the status quo seems to be that a forearm is ok until the post player who has the ball starts to dribble on a back down, which again I think puts the defender at a disadvantage, but you know what they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In the college game the status quo seems to be that a forearm is ok until the post player who has the ball starts to dribble on a back down, which again I think puts the defender at a disadvantage, but you know what they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I have to disagree that this is allowed at the college level. I attended two D1 camps this past summer and I heard one of the supervisors that ran one of the camps express this is a foul. Then in the other camp it was explained that this should not be allowed and the term "this is not the NBA" came up a couple of times. You might see some contact with a forearm, but it does not seem to persist. It is not called as consistently, but I do not see someone just leave their forearm and it not be called when I watch major college ball. Small college there might be a hit and miss.

Peace

[zeke]

First , this is an excellent question & u can already see it carries several different opinions.Great topic to cover in pre game and at half time. Looking at it from the college, this is a form of hand checking. Very much so in the post. Without the ball I will allow him to have it there but not to guide but to brace or "feel". With the ball, only to brace for initial contact then drop it (to brace) any movement by the offense to make a offensive move with the elbow on-defensive foul.

[BillyMac]

Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDD’s. Don’t let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace,or Dislodge.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDD’s. Don’t let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace,or Dislodge.

impressive. thanks for sharing that with me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.

Does that mean that it's OK for a defender to use a forearm on a post player without the ball? Or any player, for that matter?

From an old but still valid NFHS POE on ROUGH PLAY:- "Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact, is a FOUL".

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does that mean that it's OK for a defender to use a forearm on a post player without the ball?

In college, yes, that's what it means. But as I distinguished above, not in HS.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does that mean that it's OK for a defender to use a forearm on a post player without the ball? Or any player, for that matter?

From an old but still valid NFHS POE on ROUGH PLAY:- "Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact, is a FOUL".

JR,
Please direct me to the reference you are applying in this situation. As for me, a forearm in and of itself does not constitute a foul and to say that it is, seems a little officious. My interpretation of the OP is that they meant every time an arm bar is used is this a foul? It is not unless it impedes, reroutes, or displaces. A forearm can be used to absorb contact as long as it isn't extended.

If I am defending in the post, playing behind and to the side of the offense, I extend an arm to deter the entry pass and I have my off arm in front of my chest and more than likely it is in contact with the offense. If the offense ins't actively working to get the ball, I am not going to call this.

If memory serves the intent of the NFHS was to stop the pushing that players do with the arm bar, is this what you are referring to?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDD’s. Don’t let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace,or Dislodge.

I know this is going to sound snotty, and I don't mean it to. But it would be nice if you credited the author when you quote their stuff. This is lifted directly from my pre-game notes, which I posted here: Looking for a detailed pre-game

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In HS the norm seems to be that you can't put a forearm on a player regardless of whether you are using it to just hold your position or not, which I personally think is wrong, because the advantage is fully to the offensive player now because it makes it harder for the defensive player to hold his ground. JMO though.

The advantage is only to the offense if the officials allow the offense to run over the defender without calling an offensive foul. The defender shouldn't be compelled to use their arm to maintain thier position.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is hard because NFHS just puts this in their POE section every 1 out of 10 years, and college does not have great guidelines either.

This year's NCAA Women's POE on rough play has (IMHO) excellent and clear guidelines for what is permissible in post play.

Post Play
Post play is still too rough. Players are gaining too much of an advantage by holding and displacing their opponents. Coaches must teach players legal tactics while playing the post, and officials must penalize illegal tactics when they are observed.
a. Definition. A post player is defined in Rule 4-52 as any offensive or defensive player in the lane area with or without the ball with his or her back to the basket. The lane area includes the three-second lane (4-64) and approximately three feet just outside the lane.
An offensive post player becomes a ball handler when, while in the lane area, she turns and faces the basket with the ball or moves completely outside the lane area with the ball.
b. Legal activity. It is legal for a defensive player to place one or two body parts (hands or arm-bars) on the offensive post player provided no holding, displacing or illegal contact occurs. Legal contact occurs when offensive and defensive players are touching and both are maintaining a legally established position. However, when any legal contact occurs between post players to maintain a position, an official’s awareness should be heightened and he/she should be prepared to make a foul call when the contact becomes illegal.
c. Illegal contact. A foul shall be called when:
1. A legally established arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent.
2. Displacement occurs from a locked and/or extended elbow.
3. A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace.
4. An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
5. The offensive post player holds, hooks or displaces the leg or body of the defender.
6. An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position.

Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This year's NCAA Women's POE on rough play has (IMHO) excellent and clear guidelines for what is permissible in post play.



Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

Jim these are, in fact, great guidelines and should and hopefully will filter down into the men's side of the game and down into the HS game. Things like this are needed for the sport. This gives the official a chance to judge and still apply the guidelines. Thanks for posting that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Jim these are, in fact, great guidelines and should and hopefully will filter down into the men's side of the game and down into the HS game. Things like this are needed for the sport. This gives the official a chance to judge and still apply the guidelines. Thanks for posting that.

The Men's game already has guidelines in place. They just do not use the same language or issue the same concerns. Just watch the Men's NCAA tape and that will be very clear after just a couple of slides what is expected. Hank Nichols went on a little rant at the end of the Men's Meeting in Chicago about rough play and the game getting too physical. There is also was a statement from the Coach's Association and the Tournament Committee (which both I believe are on the EOfficials web site in the Men's Basketball Section) that make it clear to clean up the game. I am just a lower level college official. The officials in the room were the "whose who" of officiating at the NCAA Men's Basketball Division 1 Level who was getting this message. Many of the people we talk about on this website were sitting around the room. So it was not like D2 and D3 officials were the people getting this message. Also you need to read the statement from the Men's Committee about how rough play has been an issue for the past 10 years straight.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

Think so?

Jmo, Jim, but I think that the FED also has told us how they want this handled. They wrote these following guidelines very clearly, and then posted them on their website and printed them in the 2003-04 rule book.

POE 2(C)- POST PLAY
1: The offense can "shape up" to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke", pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.
2: The defense can assume a legal vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind of the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts(initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.
3: When a player pushes a leg or knee into the rear of an opponent, it is a foul.
4: When a layer dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in", it is a foul.
5: When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul

POE 2(D)- REBOUNDING:
A player has a right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position a player may not:
1: Displace charge or push an opponent.
2: Extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arms or elbows occur.
3: bends his or her body in an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
4: Violate the principle of verticality.
5: Better his or her position by other than legal means.

Note that the NFHS also issued similar guidelines for Rough Play with reference to handchecking, screening and block/charge in the same POE.

I print the NFHS POE's out every year from the FED web site and put them in a file, as I also do for the NCAA bulletins. I find doing so great for future refence and training.