Post Play

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by mick

You seem very passionate about this game.
That can be a good thing.

It's kind of my life. It's what I do for a living.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is hard because NFHS just puts this in their POE section every 1 out of 10 years, and college does not have great guidelines either.

This year's NCAA Women's POE on rough play has (IMHO) excellent and clear guidelines for what is permissible in post play.

Post Play
Post play is still too rough. Players are gaining too much of an advantage by holding and displacing their opponents. Coaches must teach players legal tactics while playing the post, and officials must penalize illegal tactics when they are observed.
a. Definition. A post player is defined in Rule 4-52 as any offensive or defensive player in the lane area with or without the ball with his or her back to the basket. The lane area includes the three-second lane (4-64) and approximately three feet just outside the lane.
An offensive post player becomes a ball handler when, while in the lane area, she turns and faces the basket with the ball or moves completely outside the lane area with the ball.
b. Legal activity. It is legal for a defensive player to place one or two body parts (hands or arm-bars) on the offensive post player provided no holding, displacing or illegal contact occurs. Legal contact occurs when offensive and defensive players are touching and both are maintaining a legally established position. However, when any legal contact occurs between post players to maintain a position, an official’s awareness should be heightened and he/she should be prepared to make a foul call when the contact becomes illegal.
c. Illegal contact. A foul shall be called when:
1. A legally established arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent.
2. Displacement occurs from a locked and/or extended elbow.
3. A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace.
4. An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
5. The offensive post player holds, hooks or displaces the leg or body of the defender.
6. An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position.

Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This year's NCAA Women's POE on rough play has (IMHO) excellent and clear guidelines for what is permissible in post play.



Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

Jim these are, in fact, great guidelines and should and hopefully will filter down into the men's side of the game and down into the HS game. Things like this are needed for the sport. This gives the official a chance to judge and still apply the guidelines. Thanks for posting that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Jim these are, in fact, great guidelines and should and hopefully will filter down into the men's side of the game and down into the HS game. Things like this are needed for the sport. This gives the official a chance to judge and still apply the guidelines. Thanks for posting that.

The Men's game already has guidelines in place. They just do not use the same language or issue the same concerns. Just watch the Men's NCAA tape and that will be very clear after just a couple of slides what is expected. Hank Nichols went on a little rant at the end of the Men's Meeting in Chicago about rough play and the game getting too physical. There is also was a statement from the Coach's Association and the Tournament Committee (which both I believe are on the EOfficials web site in the Men's Basketball Section) that make it clear to clean up the game. I am just a lower level college official. The officials in the room were the "whose who" of officiating at the NCAA Men's Basketball Division 1 Level who was getting this message. Many of the people we talk about on this website were sitting around the room. So it was not like D2 and D3 officials were the people getting this message. Also you need to read the statement from the Men's Committee about how rough play has been an issue for the past 10 years straight.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

Think so?

Jmo, Jim, but I think that the FED also has told us how they want this handled. They wrote these following guidelines very clearly, and then posted them on their website and printed them in the 2003-04 rule book.

POE 2(C)- POST PLAY
1: The offense can "shape up" to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke", pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.
2: The defense can assume a legal vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind of the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts(initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.
3: When a player pushes a leg or knee into the rear of an opponent, it is a foul.
4: When a layer dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in", it is a foul.
5: When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul

POE 2(D)- REBOUNDING:
A player has a right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position a player may not:
1: Displace charge or push an opponent.
2: Extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arms or elbows occur.
3: bends his or her body in an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
4: Violate the principle of verticality.
5: Better his or her position by other than legal means.

Note that the NFHS also issued similar guidelines for Rough Play with reference to handchecking, screening and block/charge in the same POE.

I print the NFHS POE's out every year from the FED web site and put them in a file, as I also do for the NCAA bulletins. I find doing so great for future refence and training.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Think so?

Jmo, Jim, but I think that the FED also has told us how they want this handled.

I think the NCAA's explanations of legal and illegal activity are more clearly written. To each his own.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I think the NCAA's explanations of legal and illegal activity are more clearly written. To each his own.

What isn't clearly written in the FED POE?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What isn't clearly written in the FED POE?

Alot. What, in the post play section of the POE above is #5 saying. Can I use a forearm to maintain position, or can I not use one at all. It is very vague in its wording. And what the hell in the offensive part does it mean by "shape up".

I just want to know from the rulebook if a forearm is legal or not for the purposes of just maintaining position. It sounds like it is reffed differently throughout the nation. I am going to ask my assignor next time I see him and see what he says, so I can make sure I am, in fact, in Rome. Cause its possible I am in the suburbs of it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Alot. What, in the post play section of the POE above is #5 saying. Can I use a forearm to maintain position, or can I not use one at all. It is very vague in its wording. And what the hell in the offensive part does it mean by "shape up".

I just want to know from the rulebook if a forearm is legal or not for the purposes of just maintaining position. It sounds like it is reffed differently throughout the nation. I am going to ask my assignor next time I see him and see what he says, so I can make sure I am, in fact, in Rome. Cause its possible I am in the suburbs of it.

Sigh....

As posted on this forum before, several times....taken from the same and other NFHS POE's:

"USE OF A FOREARM, REGARDLESS OF THE DURATION OF THE CONTACT, IS A FOUL!"

That is a direct cite from the NFHS 2003-04 rule book.

The usage of a forearm under NFHS rules is NEVER legal under ANY circumstances.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

... what the hell in the offensive part does it mean by "shape up".

Well, I choose the Triangle because it has a wider base when I shape up in the Post. A circle is just to unstable down low.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh....

As posted on this forum before, several times....taken from the same and other NFHS POE's:

"USE OF A FOREARM, REGARDLESS OF THE DURATION OF THE CONTACT, IS A FOUL!"

That is a direct cite from the NFHS 2003-04 rule book.

The usage of a forearm under NFHS rules is NEVER legal under ANY circumstances.

Right. But as btaylor points out, it also says:

When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul.

That seems to suggest that it's NOT a foul to use a forearm as long as you don't prevent your opponent from maintaining a legal position.

Now, you and I both know that's NOT what it means. But if you only read the POE and not the section that you cited, that's what somebody would infer. It could be written better there.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

And what the hell in the offensive part does it mean by "shape up".

It's the equivalent of the NBA's expression to "firm up" for the contact.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

It's the equivalent of the NBA's expression to "firm up" for the contact.

Yes, but the term "firm up" in the NBA venacular refers to the defense. "Shape up", to me, is so ambigious and a weird wording. Do you think they changed from "firm up" to "shape up" just so they wouldn't have the same wording as the NBA?

By the by, I understand what you are saying and thank you.

P.S. To me, it sucks that a player can't at least use a forearm to maintain position.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh....

As posted on this forum before, several times....taken from the same and other NFHS POE's:

"USE OF A FOREARM, REGARDLESS OF THE DURATION OF THE CONTACT, IS A FOUL!"

That is a direct cite from the NFHS 2003-04 rule book.

The usage of a forearm under NFHS rules is NEVER legal under ANY circumstances.

This text is clear. This is also not in the excerpt you posted before and referenced as being clear. This would make the whole excerpt clearer. Especially the large font size.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This text is clear. This is also not in the excerpt you posted before and referenced as being clear. This would make the whole excerpt clearer. Especially the large font size.

I'm surprised those big letters weren't blue.