Illegal dribble?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mick

If you call a violation what rule do you use? I just don't see a problem once the opponent has touched the ball.
mick

I probably have nothing if the opponent touched the ball. But I see it differently if the opponent was touched by the ball. If the dribbler loses control because of his own action, whether that involves the ball bouncing off his own foot, a defender's foot, an official's foot, or a dirt clod on the floor, I see nothing to indicate that his dribble has ended, so I would be more inclined to treat this as an interrupted dribble than a fumble or a just cuz.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I probably have nothing if the opponent touched the ball. But I see it differently if the opponent was touched by the ball. If the dribbler loses control because of his own action, whether that involves the ball bouncing off his own foot, a defender's foot, an official's foot, or a dirt clod on the floor, I see nothing to indicate that his dribble has ended, so I would be more inclined to treat this as an interrupted dribble than a fumble or a just cuz.

See 4.15.4 Sit.D(c). It clearly states dribble has ended in the case of the dribbler's own foot, but that the ball may be recovered.

No mention of anyone elses foot implies no violation.
mick

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mick

See 4.15.4 Sit.D(c). It clearly states dribble has ended in the case of the dribbler's own foot, but that the ball may be recovered.

No mention of anyone elses foot implies no violation.
mick

It says the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball, not when it hit his foot. He may recover the ball, yes, but it does not say he can start another dribble. Are you saying that he can in this situation?

[mick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick
See 4.15.4 Sit.D(c). It clearly states dribble has ended in the case of the dribbler's own foot, but that the ball may be recovered.

No mention of anyone elses foot implies no violation.
mick

Originally Posted by just another ref

It says the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball, not when it hit his foot. He may recover the ball, yes, but it does not say he can start another dribble. Are you saying that he can in this situation?

Of course not.
4.15.4 SitD(c) Ruling shows and states the dribble has ended.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I probably have nothing if the opponent touched the ball. But I see it differently if the opponent was touched by the ball. If the dribbler loses control because of his own action,

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

You may ask why more players don't dribble off opponent's foot as a matter of strategy to gain a new dribble. Well, I think it's more because it's extremely difficult. I can't imagine even the best player pulling it off very often.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

This is what I am asking for. Where is this in the rule book? A dribble does not end just because player control ends. (interrupted dribble) As far as the opponent, 4-15-4 c. states that the dribble ends when An opponent bats (intentionallystrikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
This insinuates to me that the ball touching another part of the body does not end the dribble, with the exception of a kicking violation, which of course causes the ball to become dead.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is what I am asking for. Where is this in the rule book? A dribble does not end just because player control ends. (interrupted dribble) As far as the opponent, 4-15-4 c. states that the dribble ends when An opponent bats (intentionallystrikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
This insinuates to me that the ball touching another part of the body does not end the dribble, with the exception of a kicking violation, which of course causes the ball to become dead.

If you continue to ignore the "unless..." part of 9-5-3 about "been touched by, another player"..., then on your floor, when A1 makes a pass directly to an opponent, where the opponent did not specifically bat the ball, then you would still have A1 dribbling.

Some things a person must do alone.

finis.
mick

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is what I am asking for. Where is this in the rule book? A dribble does not end just because player control ends. (interrupted dribble) As far as the opponent, 4-15-4 c. states that the dribble ends when An opponent bats (intentionallystrikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
This insinuates to me that the ball touching another part of the body does not end the dribble, with the exception of a kicking violation, which of course causes the ball to become dead.

A dribble can end and the player can't legally dribble again, or it can end, and the player CAN legally dribble again, depending.

When a player has been dribbling and then touches the ball with both hands, the dribble ends, and she doesn't get another dribble. But if she has been dribbling and then an opponent strikes the ball with the hand, now the dribbler gets another dribble. She can use two hands to recover the ball, and then start another dribble.

As far as the rule about player control when it touches another person, I'm not quickly coming up with the reference I want, and I'm gonna have to do some research. I'll get back to you about this.

[mick]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

As far as the rule about player control when it touches another person, I'm not quickly coming up with the reference I want, and I'm gonna have to do some research. I'll get back to you about this.

4-12-1

After touching another player, the player, previously in control, is neither holding, nor dribbling.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mick

4-12-1

After touching another player, the player, previously in control, is neither holding, nor dribbling.

Mick, this cite doesn't do it for me. 1)your wording doesn't refer to the ball and sounds as though we're talking about player-to-player body contact. I know that's not what you meant, but I'm just channelling my old English-teaching grandmother who was very picky about referents and so on.

2) the wording in the rule book clearly doesn't say this. It also doesn't say it's not true. It's just not there. I don't have time right now to plow around and find a better reference, but I"ll work on it.

[Nu1]

Rule 4-15-4 (2005-06 I don't have the new ones yet, if they're out) lists ways a dribble can end. But the list isn't all inclusive, is it? For example, it lists that the dribble ends when...the dribbler catches the ball or it comes to rest in the hand...the dribbler palms / carries the ball...the dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with two hands...the opponent bats the ball...and the ball becomes dead.

What if A1 is standing still and dribblling the ball...A2 walks towards A1 and A1 lets the ball bounce as A1 walks away. A2 then grabs the ball and dribbles, passes or shoots. The dribble by A1 ended, correct? But A1 did not do anything listed in the rule for how a dribble ends.

When I'm reffing and the ball hits a defender, intentional or not, I have the dribble as ended and the dribbler can recover and dribble again.

[mick]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

As far as the rule about player control when it touches another person, I'm not quickly coming up with the reference I want, and I'm gonna have to do some research. I'll get back to you about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick
4-12-1

After touching another player, the player, previously in control, is neither holding, nor dribbling.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Mick, this cite doesn't do it for me. 1)your wording doesn't refer to the ball and sounds as though we're talking about player-to-player body contact. I know that's not what you meant, but I'm just channelling my old English-teaching grandmother who was very picky about referents and so on.

2) the wording in the rule book clearly doesn't say this. It also doesn't say it's not true. It's just not there. I don't have time right now to plow around and find a better reference, but I"ll work on it.

Jewel,
My apology for being obtuse.

The point I attempted to make was that player control involves holding/dribbling the ball. and if the ball has touched another player, then the original player was no longer holding/dribbling and thus no longer in control.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

Yup, doing so is interpreted as a fumble under rule 9-5-3. JAR is interpreting 9-5-3 differently than anyone else that I've ever met.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

The ref is part of the floor and would not be part of the things the ball can touch to enable a second dribble.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's your wording, not the rule book's. If it touches anyone else, opponent, ref, teammate, at any body part, player control is lost, the dribble is gone and the former dribbler is entitled to a new dribble.

Camron made a great catch on this. As worded here this is a common basketball myth, I'm amazed when above kiddy ball a player will look at me in disbelief and shock when he restarts his dribble after an opponent merely touches the ball and I blow the whistle. But it happens, and my response is always to smile and say "You are kidding me, right?"