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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 03, 2006, 09:09pm
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Over and back -correctable call

Last season Iím doing a middle school game and at opening tip-off Team B gets ball in their front court but goes the wrong way towards their basket and crosses center line. B Coach yells and the B player turns and goes back into their frontcourt. They shoot and miss and A gets rebound. Meanwhile A Coach is yelling over and back for the first play. I blow my whistle, stop play, and ask my partner for advice. He said too late to correct. We give ball back to A to inbound and the game continues.

First time in 5 years, I have seen this. Neither my partner nor I made the call for over and back violation. I think we were both too caught up in the moment. We obviously blew the call. Is this a correctable error? Should I have done anything differently? What if Team B scored after we missed the call?
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Old Thu Aug 03, 2006, 09:34pm
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Hi Jim,

Just a quick pointer first.

In Fed ball, by definition, teams shoot on their own basket. So in your account above, when Team B obtained the ball in their frontcourt, and "went the wrong way towards their basket", they were actually going towards A's basket. It still appears that B did obtain possession in their frontcourt (FC), but when they crossed the division line, they are now heading towards A's basket. When the B player went back into his FC, they are now heading towards their basket.

Your P is correct - it is too late to call an over-and-back violation. It is not a correctable error. It is just a missed call. In fact, it was probably too late about a second or three after it happened. Given that it's middle school, I suppose you could have a longer delayed whistle and still make this call, when B did violate.

After the game was stopped with A securing the rebound, it was correct to give A the ball, as that was the point of interruption.

That's a good item to work into your game - to catch those over-and-backs that occur on the jump ball.

I don't think you could have done anything differently, except that you have a few seconds to make this call after it happened, imo, since it is middle school. If B scored, then I think there is nothing you can do.
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Old Thu Aug 03, 2006, 11:42pm
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Yup, not correctable.

It would be good to point out to the complaining coach that you'd have given his team the same benefit of the doubt. He might as well learn to be a little flexible this early in the game.
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 01:25am
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As to the question of what if B scored:

A live ball passed through A's basket (as JugglingReferee pointed out, teams shoot at their own baskets in Fed), so A get two points. At this point you're going to hit the whistle, get everyone straightened out on which direction they're supposed to be going, and give the ball back to B for a throw-in anywhere along the A's endline.

You're going to want to do this rather quickly, before B's coach starts whining about how you should've called over and back and not given them the basket.

Just a couple of little twists for your consideration:
  • If B gets fouled while shooting at A's basket, the ball is dead immediately and B is not given any free throws even if the shot is unsuccessful (B would, however get free throws if B were in the bonus, but that was obviously not the case in the play you stated).
  • If B shoots at A's basket from behind the three point line, it only counts two points.
Both of these little quirks are because shooting at your opponent's basket is not considered a try.
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 06:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Hi Jim,

Your P is correct - it is too late to call an over-and-back violation. It is not a correctable error. It is just a missed call. In fact, it was probably too late about a second or three after it happened. Given that it's middle school, I suppose you could have a longer delayed whistle and still make this call, when B did violate.

After the game was stopped with A securing the rebound, it was correct to give A the ball, as that was the point of interruption.

That's a good item to work into your game - to catch those over-and-backs that occur on the jump ball.

I don't think you could have done anything differently, except that you have a few seconds to make this call after it happened, imo, since it is middle school. If B scored, then I think there is nothing you can do.
JugglingReferee,
I dunno why it's too late to make the call.

With the coach yelling and telling about the missed call, and with the ball dead and the officials talking, why not just make the call and give the ball to Team A near the division line?
Same ol', same ol'.
mick
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 06:30am
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If I recognized the violation before they shot the ball, I'd make the call.

But no, it is not a "correctable error."

Why is the coach yelling? His team has the ball. Tell him to hush!
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 06:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
JugglingReferee,
I dunno why it's too late to make the call.
Mick, after the missed violation, there was a shot and a rebound. That's just way too late to go back and try and do anything- especially when the rules won't allow you to do that in the first place, as per case book play 5.2.1SitF.

Just say "missed that one" and move on. If you set a precedent otherwise, then you're gonna have pandemonium out there.
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 06:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Mick, after the missed violation, there was a shot and a rebound. That's just way too late to go back and try and do anything- especially when the rules won't allow you to do that in the first place, as per case book play 5.2.1SitF.

Just say "missed that one" and move on. If you set a precedent otherwise, then you're gonna have pandemonium out there.
I dunno, JR.
5.2.1F has other considerations (ie., jumpers facing wrong direction, baskets scored).
I agree with saying "missed one", but I don't think a pan of ammonia is gonna be any bigger (everyone, by then, knew what happened) if you blow the call late and set the ball at the division line.
mick
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 07:38am
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If I understand the post correctly, B get ball in their front court, he passes the center line and heads back, that is a BAck court violation. Isn't it?
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 07:53am
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Originally Posted by REFVA
If I understand the post correctly, B get ball in their front court, he passes the center line and heads back, that is a BAck court violation. Isn't it?
REFVA,
Yeah that's the right call.
The question is:
  • If the play goes (temporarily) unoticed, can you (should you) make the violation call.
mick

unoticed? unnoticed? un-noticed?
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 08:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
I dunno, JR.
5.2.1F has other considerations (ie., jumpers facing wrong direction, baskets scored).
I agree with saying "missed one", but I don't think a pan of ammonia is gonna be any bigger (everyone, by then, knew what happened) if you blow the call late and set the ball at the division line.
mick
You gonna do the same thing for a missed travel? A missed OOB call? A missed anything?

Are you also gonna correct a correctable error that was actually just too late to correct, by rule?

If you do one, what's your rationale for not doing all of them?

Jmo, but I think that you're just setting yourself up for a whole buncha headaches if you start fixing up calls retroactively.
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 08:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick

unoticed? unnoticed? un-noticed?
Where's Mister Annoying Pain-In-The-Azz Spelling Guy? The little sh!t is never around when you need him, is he?
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 08:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
You gonna do the same thing for a missed travel? A missed OOB call? A missed anything?

Are you also gonna correct a correctable error that was actually just too late to correct, by rule?

If you do one, what's your rationale for not doing all of them?

Jmo, but I think that you're just setting yourself up for a whole buncha headaches if you start fixing up calls retroactively.
JR,
I dunno. Do you think I will ?
Yer just being irascible cuz your sitch don't work.

I was questioning the "too late" thingy.
When is too late ? After a score? --> sure. After 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 9 seconds?
mick
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 08:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Where's Mister Annoying Pain-In-The-Azz Spelling Guy? The little sh!t is never around when you need him, is he?
Just for that, I'm not going to tell you which one is correct.
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Old Fri Aug 04, 2006, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Just for that, I'm not going to tell you which one is correct.
About time.

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