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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 05:10pm
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Tie game 20 seconds left, team A has the ball and is fouled, during the inbound, team b intercepts the pass and is going down the court to set up the offense, with 4 seconds left, we have a dead ball, deflected pass goes out of bounds. Team A's coach calls a conference with the official, apparently the foul that occured on team A with 20 seconds left should have been a bonus situation, they gather at the scorers table and concur that it should have been a 1 and 1. They go back and let team A shot the bonus and make both shots. Of course there is all kinds of screaming from the bleechers, but after all of this... team B's coach wants the 20 seconds put back on.... They didn't put the seconds on, and the game is over after a desperation shot fails. I believe the officials were correct in awarding the free throws, but I may wrong, and I have no idea about putting time back on the clock. What say you? BTW... These are 2 very good respectable officials

[Edited by lot10 on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 05:13 PM]
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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 05:16pm
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Time should not be added back to the clock. B is awarded a throw-in from the point of interruption of the game - which is where the dead ball happened with 4 seconds left.

Someone else can cite the rules references, as I do not have books with me right now.
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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 08:12pm
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The juggling one is correct. It's the culmination of a series of unfortunate events.

Now, my question is this. Let's change the situation here slightly, and say that team B ran the clock down all the way before missing a shot as the buzzer sounded. This is the first dead ball after the correctable error occurred. Can we now grant team A the free throws to avoid overtime?
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Old Thu Feb 02, 2006, 08:47pm
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Yes, as per R5-S6-A3-EXCEPTION and R2-S10
"SECTION 6 BEGINNING, END OF QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
... If a foul occurs:....EXCEPTION: No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 12:09am
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So, basically, we give the thrower a 1 and 1 with nobody in the lane, then go POI, assuming time is left in regulation, if the non-FT team has possession, right? If the FT team has possession, then we line everyone up, right?

Then, we have to explain why it isn't our fault that the scorer didn't notify us.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 02:16am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
If the FT team has possession, then we line everyone up, right?
Not necessarily. I assume you're not referring to the OP. If the error is that a second shot should have been granted, but wasn't, and A rebounds, and maintains control until the discovery of the error, then you line 'em up and continue from that second shot. But if there's been any change of possession at all, such as B getting a rebound, or a steal, or whatever, then it's clear the lane, and POI.

In the OP since the first shot was never taken, then the first criterion isn't met, and the correction is made with the lane clear, and then POI.

Also, no time put back on the clock.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 04:54am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
The juggling one is correct. It's the culmination of a series of unfortunate events.

Now, my question is this. Let's change the situation here slightly, and say that team B ran the clock down all the way before missing a shot as the buzzer sounded. This is the first dead ball after the correctable error occurred. Can we now grant team A the free throws to avoid overtime?
This is actually a very troublesome question. There seems to be a gray area in the rules here.

There is no doubt that it is proper to award the merited FTs even after time has expired in the 4th quarter, since this is still within the timeframe for correcting the error.

The problem that I have is I'm not clear on the need for the extra period.
Personally, I believe that the extra period is played no matter what the result of the FTs because the 4th quarter ended with the score tied. Had it ended with the nonshooting team being ahead by 1 or 2, the FTs would be attempted and considered part of the 4th quarter.
Yet since the quarter did indeed end and now we are correcting an error during that dead ball after the 4th quarter is over, I believe that the OT could start with the score not tied in this case.


Sounds crazy.


The above ruling would seem to apply if a change is made in the value of a shot at this time. 2 to 3 or 3 to 2. Odd and I'd like to see something from the NFHS.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 08:11am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
So, basically, we give the thrower a 1 and 1 with nobody in the lane, then go POI, assuming time is left in regulation, if the non-FT team has possession, right? If the FT team has possession, then we line everyone up, right?

Then, we have to explain why it isn't our fault that the scorer didn't notify us.
Fault of the crew...including the table. Might have checked foul situation, time outs, integrity of the books at the prior time out opportunity (assuming the scoreboard did not list the Team Foul situation). If the scoreboard did not list Team Fouls, certainly an item for pre-game discussion as well as final minute check list. Seems as if there's always something to "learn from" and "do better at".
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
The juggling one is correct. It's the culmination of a series of unfortunate events.

Now, my question is this. Let's change the situation here slightly, and say that team B ran the clock down all the way before missing a shot as the buzzer sounded. This is the first dead ball after the correctable error occurred. Can we now grant team A the free throws to avoid overtime?
This is actually a very troublesome question. There seems to be a gray area in the rules here.


I don't think it's so grey (but I don't have my books with me to check the wording).

IF a foul occurs *after* the 4th quarter is over, then it's shot as part of the 4th quarter only if it will determine whether the game will go to OT. IF the game is tied and the foul occurs *after* the 4th quarter has ended, then the shots occur as the beginning of the OT.

In the OP, the foul occurred during the 4th quarter, so it must be shot during the 4th quarter -- no foul or penalty shall carry over ...; A quarter ends when all fouls and related activity have been completed ...

Suppose that, in a tie game, the foul occurs just as (just prior to) the horn sounds. Even though time has expired, we'd still shoot the FTs. I think the original play is much like this.

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Old Mon Feb 06, 2006, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
The juggling one is correct. It's the culmination of a series of unfortunate events.

Now, my question is this. Let's change the situation here slightly, and say that team B ran the clock down all the way before missing a shot as the buzzer sounded. This is the first dead ball after the correctable error occurred. Can we now grant team A the free throws to avoid overtime?
This is actually a very troublesome question. There seems to be a gray area in the rules here.


I don't think it's so grey (but I don't have my books with me to check the wording).

IF a foul occurs *after* the 4th quarter is over, then it's shot as part of the 4th quarter only if it will determine whether the game will go to OT. IF the game is tied and the foul occurs *after* the 4th quarter has ended, then the shots occur as the beginning of the OT.

In the OP, the foul occurred during the 4th quarter, so it must be shot during the 4th quarter -- no foul or penalty shall carry over ...; A quarter ends when all fouls and related activity have been completed ...

Suppose that, in a tie game, the foul occurs just as (just prior to) the horn sounds. Even though time has expired, we'd still shoot the FTs. I think the original play is much like this.

Bob,
After having some time to reflect upon this, I'm actually even more disappointed with the wording of the rules book.

I believe that there is a significant gap in the rules here. These FTs really should be considered part of the preceding quarter and no penalty or part of one should be permitted to carry over to the next period. However, please look at the rigid structure of the applicable rule:
---------------------------------
RULE 5, SECTION 6 BEGINNING, END OF QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live. It ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired, except that:
ART. 1 . . . If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
ART. 2 . . . If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation.

ART. 3 . . . If a foul occurs:

a. So near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires.
b. After time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal.

The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next.


EXCEPTION: No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

ART. 4 . . . If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. This applies when the foul occurs after any quarter has ended, including the fourth quarter, provided there is to be an extra period. If there is no way to determine whether there will be an extra period until the free throws are administered, the free throws are attempted immediately, as if the foul had been part of the preceding quarter.
-----------------------------

In the case of a correctable error that is corrected during the dead ball immediately following the end of a period, we don't have a situation that fits under article 3 or article 4. We simply don't have a foul that occurs right near the end and the timer isn't able to stop the clock, nor do we have a foul during a try in flight at the horn.
We also don't have a technical foul.

This is simply not covered in the current rules as written.

My new ruling is that all related activity has to include a correctable error and those FT are have to be considered part of that quarter which just ended. I'd actually have to invoke 2-3 here. The NFHS needs to issue a case play on this or better yet add another article to 5-6.
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Old Mon Feb 06, 2006, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref

RULE 5, SECTION 6 BEGINNING, END OF QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live. It ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired, except that:
ART. 1 . . . If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
ART. 2 . . . If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation.

ART. 3 . . . If a foul occurs:

a. So near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires.
b. After time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal.

The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next.


EXCEPTION: No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

I don't have the HS book with me so I'll just ask are you sure that what I've underlined falls under the "if" condition of 5-6-3?

In the ncaa book it stands on it's own as 5-7-4 so it is clear what the rule is & there's no need to go to 2-3.

"Except for disqualification or ejection, no penalty or part of a penalty shall carry over from one half or extra period to another."

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