Pre Game

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

What would be better for the game..... allowing that contact to go uncalled or making the "right call" and taking away my partner's credibility like I did?

Z

Ok, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. Are you 100% sure the coaches were on your partner solely because you made that call in his area? Or could it be because he was "solid, but not a guy I'd want to work a huge game with", iow, the weakest guy on the crew? Could there have been other small things that happened during the game that let the coaches think they could question his calls? Have you talked to those coaches since that game, and have they told you that was the case?

I certainly agree with the philosophy on staying in your area. I think it's been proven many times that calls made outside an official's area are more likely to be wrong. However, I'm not sure I would pass on a call that I'm sure happened, and I'm sure my partner didn't pass on it but just missed it, even if it was outside my area. If the issue is credibility, how do you explain to a coach that you saw the foul, but just didn't call it solely because it was not in your area? I would think that would lower your credibilty as a crew much more than making a correct call that your partner missed. I'm just not convinced coaches are smart enough, or thinking about that during a game. I would think they are picking up on more than just that one call to start questioning the rest of your partner's calls.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by RonRef

When you talked to him after the game what did he say that he saw? Was the foul marginal or was it a foul you thought you saw? I have worked games when I am the lead and there is a drive from the wing and there is contact right in front of me on the backside and I can't see a thing because the play blows up on you and the Trail comes in with a great help call. The play was three feet in front of me and an officials from 20 feet with a better look comes in and gets the call.

He said what any official in that situation would probably say, "hey, no problem." It's been a few years ago, but I don't think he remembered the play when I brought it up after the game.

The contact was a hit on the arm. Not a major slap, but enough that I was sure it affected the shot. But since it was right in front of him, maybe I didn't see what I thought I saw. Maybe he saw the entire play and thought that it didn't affect the shot. Or maybe he thought the contact occurred after the shot was gone.

The point is that I had no business looking there and I caused a problem by reffing out of my area and conveying to everyone that my partner wasn't completely trusted by the crew. Bad Zebraman!

In the play you referred to above, the foul that happened in front of you is the trail's call (any drive out of the T or C's area going right to the hoop is theirs to take all the way). And plays in front of you might often be in the T's secondary coverage area too. The C has no business looking outside the far lane line.

Z

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. Are you 100% sure the coaches were on your partner solely because you made that call in his area?

Yep. I've worked many games with him and never had any problems with coaches "picking on him." His calls are good, he just isn't the greatest game manager ever. He has good "presence" and is believable. When I made that call, it appeared as if I did not trust that partner. I can remember the whole play vividily.

Z

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

He said what any official in that situation would probably say, "hey, no problem." It's been a few years ago, but I don't think he remembered the play when I brought it up after the game.

The contact was a hit on the arm. Not a major slap, but enough that I was sure it affected the shot. But since it was right in front of him, maybe I didn't see what I thought I saw. Maybe he saw the entire play and thought that it didn't affect the shot. Or maybe he thought the contact occurred after the shot was gone.

The point is that I had no business looking there and I caused a problem by reffing out of my area and conveying to everyone that my partner wasn't completely trusted by the crew. Bad Zebraman!

In the play you referred to above, the foul that happened in front of you is the trail's call (any drive out of the T or C's area going right to the hoop is theirs to take all the way). And plays in front of you might often be in the T's secondary coverage area too. The C has no business looking outside the far lane line.

Z

The reason I brought up the play from the wing is that the coaches just see that the call is right in front of the Lead and the Trail is making the call, they don't know coverage areas!

[ChuckElias]

We've been down this road before. Any remember the thread "How far will you go to save a game?" ?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by RonRef

The reason I brought up the play from the wing is that the coaches just see that the call is right in front of the Lead and the Trail is making the call, they don't know coverage areas!

A good trail will close in on that call and it will be believable. I don't think a C is going to run through all the players in the key to try to make a cross-court call believable.

There is a reason that each position has primary and secondary coverage areas. You own your primary area. You help out in your secondary area. You stay out of the other areas because you have partners who have much better looks at those plays.

Z

[jeffpea]

zebraman - can I ask a question here? (ok more than just one)...was it a foul? If it was a foul, then good job! If it wasn't a foul - then that's another situation that we all try to avoid.

My philosophy that I share with my partners in pre-game is: get the call right! If you see an obvious foul/a "must get" foul in my area, and I don't get it - feel free to come and get it. The best thing for the game is to get the call right - no matter where it comes from.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

zebraman - can I ask a question here? (ok more than just one)...was it a foul? If it was a foul, then good job! If it wasn't a foul - then that's another situation that we all try to avoid.

My philosophy that I share with my partners in pre-game is: get the call right! If you see an obvious foul/a "must get" foul in my area, and I don't get it - feel free to come and get it. The best thing for the game is to get the call right - no matter where it comes from.

From where I was at, it was a foul. But I was a lot further away from the play than the lead. It was right in front of him and he passed so he didn't think it was a foul.

If we are a crew, I need to trust his view and his judgement in his primary that it wasn't something that needed to be called.

If we are all just looking at the ball, we don't need 3 officials on the game. In my experience, that whole "get it right" philosophy is an excuse for ball-watchers to not take care of their areas, trust their partners and referee off-ball.

I can recall many times when partners of mine have strayed out of their primary and secondary areas and blown a whistle in my primary area. Every one of those times it has been a call that I passed on (or there was no call at all and they were dead wrong).

Maybe your experience is different, but I don't recall ever thinking, "thanks, you saved me" to a partner that is ball watching.

An official needs to referee locally and be aware globally. Being aware means that you know where your partners and the ball are. It doesn't mean that you are reffing in their areas.

Z

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

If we are all just looking at the ball, we don't need 3 officials on the game. In my experience, that whole "get it right" philosophy is an excuse for ball-watchers to not take care of their areas, trust their partners and referee off-ball.

I agree. But I think we also need to be careful that the theory of "staying in your area" doesn't turn into being lazy and an excuse to not be aware "globally" (as you so elequently put it ).

Originally Posted by zebraman

I can recall many times when partners of mine have strayed out of their primary and secondary areas and blown a whistle in my primary area. Every one of those times it has been a call that I passed on (or there was no call at all and they were dead wrong).

And this is exactly why we need to stay in our areas. In your play, initially it sounded like you saw the foul, and your partner didn't. In your later posts, you're not quite so 100% sure you saw the foul. So, I agree you probably shouldn't have blown the whistle in that instance.

Originally Posted by zebraman

Maybe your experience is different, but I don't recall ever thinking, "thanks, you saved me" to a partner

Actually, I have experienced both sides of that. I have been blocked out (ok, perhaps out of position?...) on a call and had to have a partner come in and get it, and I have had to come in and get a call when my partner was blocked out. But, truthfully, it doesn't happen often. And, it happens more often like you said where the partner is just flat out wrong. I guess I'm just advocating not saying never call outside your area. Just do it way less often, and be 112% sure. (I did that just to see Chuck's head explode.)

[icallfouls]

I was working a CC game with a rookie and a 3rd yr vet a few years ago. Rookie was the L, I was the C (my 4th yr), and vet was the T. Player A drives from the T side, into the L primary parallel to the endline. I had 2 other players in my primary away from the basket. On the drive and subsequent shot there was a OBVIOUS foul on the shot at the farther lane line. No call from the primary official (T), no call from the (L). I paused long enough to see that no one had this call, and cracked the whistle. After reporting, a timeout was called. Rookie said "thanks for getting that one." I just reminded them that was one we have got to have. Both partners agreed.

After the game our assignor came in, the first words out of his mouth, "great crew call, we had to call it." Rookie just had one of those rookie moments, and 3yr vet had given up the ball too early. Did I want to call it in front of them? HELL NO! If there is a no call on that one, the entire crew loses credibility. I will trust my partner(s) until they prove that I cannot.

Not all assignors make assignments with the idea that "this official can handle it," they are made so that an official gains experience. This can be an officials first HS game, first playoff game, whatever. We all go through the process of not having been there before. Otherwise we would all start at the highest levels. Sometimes our nerves can cause us to not see everything we think we should and a partner will come in and get one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

After the game our assignor came in, the first words out of his mouth, "great crew call, we had to call it." Rookie just had one of those rookie moments, and 3yr vet had given up the ball too early. Did I want to call it in front of them? HELL NO! If there is a no call on that one, the entire crew loses credibility. I will trust my partner(s) until they prove that I cannot.

I think for the most part we are talking about generalities, not absolutes. Of course the situation you were faced is a little different if you ask me. If you are dealing with all veterans, I know I would handle this situation totally different. We also need to remember there is a difference about a call that is on the fringes of coverage areas and all the way in someone's coverage area. I can accept a "dual" coverage area call over a call that is completely in my area. The Center official has a lot of responsibility outside of their area. A Lead official does not have much responsibility. We should make some distinctions, but as a rule of thumb, calling out of your area can get you in trouble if you did not see the entire play. A travel call from my point of view is not a game saving call.

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Not all assignors make assignments with the idea that "this official can handle it," they are made so that an official gains experience. This can be an officials first HS game, first playoff game, whatever. We all go through the process of not having been there before. Otherwise we would all start at the highest levels. Sometimes our nerves can cause us to not see everything we think we should and a partner will come in and get one.

This is very true. But in many cases the first HS game of a young official is not going to be the cross town rivalry. Likely they will get a game that is a mismatch or game with teams not expecting great things. Not all games are made the same. Even if an official is working their "first" game at that level, they still need to call the game. If I save them, they might not know how to swim on their own.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I was working a CC game with a rookie and a 3rd yr vet a few years ago. Rookie was the L, I was the C (my 4th yr), and vet was the T. Player A drives from the T side, into the L primary parallel to the endline. I had 2 other players in my primary away from the basket. On the drive and subsequent shot there was a OBVIOUS foul on the shot at the farther lane line. No call from the primary official (T), no call from the (L). I paused long enough to see that no one had this call, and cracked the whistle. After reporting, a timeout was called. Rookie said "thanks for getting that one." I just reminded them that was one we have got to have. Both partners agreed.

After the game our assignor came in, the first words out of his mouth, "great crew call, we had to call it." Rookie just had one of those rookie moments, and 3yr vet had given up the ball too early. Did I want to call it in front of them? HELL NO! If there is a no call on that one, the entire crew loses credibility. I will trust my partner(s) until they prove that I cannot.

Not all assignors make assignments with the idea that "this official can handle it," they are made so that an official gains experience. This can be an officials first HS game, first playoff game, whatever. We all go through the process of not having been there before. Otherwise we would all start at the highest levels. Sometimes our nerves can cause us to not see everything we think we should and a partner will come in and get one.

I said earlier that I do help out brand new officials who are still green. That is my exception.

At a CC game however, I would expect my partners to be able to hold their own and ref their areas without me babysitting them.

If it was an OBVIOUS foul, one of them has to get it. Otherwise they don't belong in a CC game or even a competitive HS varsity game. If they miss a call and get a little guff from the coach, it will make them work harder the next time. If I make a call in their area, I become an enabler and they don't learn to step up.

In the situation you describe above, my assignor would have asked the T and the L why they didn't make the call. Then he would have asked the C why they were reffing in the T and L's area and he would have told the C to quit being a ball watcher. In the situation you describe, we have all 3 officials reffing the ball. Who is reffing the other 8?

Z

[rainmaker]

If it was an OBVIOUS foul, one of them has to get it. Otherwise they don't belong in a CC game or even a competitive HS varsity game. If they miss a call and get a little guff from the coach, it will make them work harder the next time. If I make a call in their area, I become an enabler and they don't learn to step up.

You're an "enabler" if you take one gotta-git-it call from a rookie who's sucking Fox? Wow.

It's called team work, and it makes for a great game. You oughtta try it sometime.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You're an "enabler" if you take one gotta-git-it call from a rookie who's sucking Fox? Wow.

It's called team work, and it makes for a great game. You oughtta try it sometime.

If you would have read this entire thread, you'd see that I said I do help out a greenhorn (I actually posted that twice) with some babysitting.

In any other situation, I trust my partners. Why is that so hard? Part of teamwork is trust. If I'm looking in someone else's area, outside of my primary and secondary coverage areas, I am not doing my job and I'm not trusting them to do theirs.

Z

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by zebraman

If you would have read this entire thread, you'd see that I said I do help out a greenhorn (I actually posted that twice) with some babysitting.

In any other situation, I trust my partners. Why is that so hard? Part of teamwork is trust. If I'm looking in someone else's area, outside of my primary and secondary coverage areas, I am not doing my job and I'm not trusting them to do theirs.

Z

I see where you said that about the greenhorns. Sorry I missed that. Still, part of teamwork is "helping out" when a partner is confused or blocked out. I can think of a number of completely reasonable situations where that might happen without someone being out of line, depending on how you define primary and secondary areas. I mean, as near as I can tell, there isn't any spot on the floor that isn't in both a primary and a secondary, so there are always two people "authorized" to make any call. (I mean in three-whistle)

And if we ever work together, you can trust me to miss at least one that I'd be happy if you got.