Pre Game

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

If you make a travel call right in front of me late in the game when the games on the line and its a travel that I got blocked out of for some reason.............................. I am going to say thanks!!!!

Bobbymo,

You won't get the chance to thank me. If that isn't my primary or secondary coverage area, I won't be looking there. I trust you as my partner. My assignor wouldn't have put you on that big game with me if you weren't capable. You will get yourself into position and make that call.

If the travel happens in my secondary coverage area, I'll help you out if it's an obvious travel that you missed. But if it's that obvious, we need to talk after the game about why you didn't get yourself into good position to make that obvious call at a crucial time. You lose credibility with both coaches if I have to help you out on that one.

Z

[BOBBYMO]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Bobbymo,

You won't get the chance to thank me. If that isn't my primary or secondary coverage area, I won't be looking there. I trust you as my partner. My assignor wouldn't have put you on that big game with me if you weren't capable. You will get yourself into position and make that call.

If the travel happens in my secondary coverage area, I'll help you out if it's an obvious travel that you missed. But if it's that obvious, we need to talk after the game about why you didn't get yourself into good position to make that obvious call at a crucial time. You lose credibility with both coaches if I have to help you out on that one.

Z

Z-

I agree with you for the most part but as we all know.... As hard as we try to get in the best position to "see the whole play" there are still times when things happen and we get blocked out. It sucks when that happens but it still can happen at no matter what level we are working at.... So if it would happen and my partners saw it.. I would expect them to get it. ESPECIALY AT THE END OF A GAME!!!! I trust my partners also but I believe that our assignor trusts us as a crew to get the play right!!!

To me its the same thing as a last second shot.. Is it a 2 or 3??? Before the buzzer or not?? Most people pregame that in that sittuation we should all take a quick look... In case needed to help out... Why??? To get the play right!!!

I would rather explain to an assignor that I got blocked out of a play and give my partner credit for getting it right then try to explain why someone on our crew saw it and didnt make the call. Lets just get it correct.... Isn't that our job?

Believe me, I am going to do everything I can to get in the best position that I can to be able to make the call. I have refereed many games at many differant levels and you know what??? I have missed a few calls over the years. I will be the 1st to admit that. Am I proud of it .. NO ...but it happens and it makes me work harder every single time I hit the court to not let it happen again.......JMO

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Wow...that's a comprehensive list. Thanks.

A little too comprehensive for me. My non-negotiables for pre-game are, last-minute shot, pass-crash, eye-contact during play, technicals, calling tight or loose, getting together for conferences, primaries and secondaries, any knowledge about the teams or coaches, my poe's, partner's poe's, giving and requesting help, talking to coaches, warm up time protocols, and anything this partner and I had trouble with the last time we worked together. Much more than that, and the pre-game runs on into the first quarter!

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

So if it would happen and my partners saw it.. I would expect them to get it. ESPECIALLY AT THE END OF A GAME!!!! I trust my partners also but I believe that our assignor trusts us as a crew to get the play right!!!

But your partners have their own responsibilities. If they have to call travels in your area, who is reffing the other 8 players? What if both of your partners are looking in your area ("helping") and two rebounders start pushing and shoving each other and nobody is watching them? Now you have a worse mess than a missed travel.

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

To me its the same thing as a last second shot.. Is it a 2 or 3??? Before the buzzer or not?? Most people pregame that in that situation we should all take a quick look... In case needed to help out... Why??? To get the play right!!!

We know which official has the clock in that situation because it's part of any decent pregame. If it's so close at the buzzer that the official with clock responsibilities wants my opinion, he/she can wave me in and I'll give them info on what I heard (not what a I saw because I'm still reffing the game and listening for the horn when I know the clock is getting near 00:00). But that is a different situation than an official reffing their partner's area instead of their own. Besides, I'm not going to be a lot of help because if the shot came out of your area, I wasn't watching the shooter (I could tell a shot went up out of my periphery or because players started to work for rebounding position) and I don't know if the ball left his/her hand before the horn.

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

I would rather explain to an assignor that I got blocked out of a play and give my partner credit for getting it right then try to explain why someone on our crew saw it and didnt make the call. Lets just get it correct.... Isn't that our job?

Our job is to work as a crew, trust each other, and cover our own areas. Honestly, if I can't trust you to get an obvious travel in your area than we shouldn't be working a game together. Partners miss calls. That's reality. Unless you're a brand newbie, I'm not out there babysitting you. I'm letting you do your job.

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

Believe me, I am going to do everything I can to get in the best position that I can to be able to make the call. I have refereed many games at many differant levels and you know what??? I have missed a few calls over the years. I will be the 1st to admit that. Am I proud of it .. NO ...but it happens and it makes me work harder every single time I hit the court to not let it happen again.......JMO

I've missed calls too. We all do. Even the refs at the highest levels miss a call now and then. I cannot recall a single time of ever seeing a D-1 or NBA ref calling a travel in front of one of his/her partners when it was not their primary or secondary area. It would completely ruin crew integrity. Besides, if it happened right in front of an official and didn't get called, maybe it wasn't a travel and it just looked like one from the ball watcher who was looking out of his/her area.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

If you make a travel call right in front of me late in the game when the games on the line and its a travel that I got blocked out of for some reason.............................. I am going to say thanks!!!!

If you make a travel call that was not there, I will kill you in the locker room.

Peace

[BOBBYMO]

[quote=zebraman]But your partners have their own responsibilities. If they have to call travels in your area, who is reffing the other 8 players? What if both of your partners are looking in your area ("helping") and two rebounders start pushing and shoving each other and nobody is watching them? Now you have a worse mess than a missed travel

I agree with what you are saying but I am talking about if its a secondary coverage... Or if there is no action in your primary... "Extending your coverage"



We know which official has the clock in that situation because it's part of any decent pregame. If it's so close at the buzzer that the official with clock responsibilities wants my opinion, he/she can wave me in and I'll give them info on what I heard (not what a I saw because I'm still reffing the game and listening for the horn when I know the clock is getting near 00:00). But that is a different situation than an official reffing their partner's area instead of their own. Besides, I'm not going to be a lot of help because if the shot came out of your area, I wasn't watching the shooter (I could tell a shot went up out of my periphery or because players started to work for rebounding position) and I don't know if the ball left his/her hand before the horn.

To me a good partner will help out if /when they can ( if there is no action in their area).. At least be able to give an oppinion if needed)



Our job is to work as a crew, trust each other, and cover our own areas. Honestly, if I can't trust you to get an obvious travel in your area than we shouldn't be working a game together. Partners miss calls. That's reality. Unless you're a brand newbie, I'm not out there babysitting you. I'm letting you do your job.

Not looking for a babbysitter at all but if its an obvious call that need to be called... I really think a partner needs to go get it if they see it



I've missed calls too. We all do. Even the refs at the highest levels miss a call now and then. I cannot recall a single time of ever seeing a D-1 or NBA ref calling a travel in front of one of his/her partners when it was not their primary or secondary area. It would completely ruin crew integrity. Besides, if it happened right in front of an official and didn't get called, maybe it wasn't a travel and it just looked like one from the ball watcher who was looking out of his/her area.


I agree But most of what I am talking about would be in a secondary coverage... But it could also be " right in front of a partner" like was stated in an earlier post.

I think we are on the same page here for the most part!!!

Bobby Mo

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

To me a good partner will help out if /when they can ( if there is no action in their area).. At least be able to give an oppinion if needed)

That sounds wonderful, but what if they are completely wrong? What if they "think" they saw something that the official in their primary clearly saw? One of the things about travel calls as this is commonly missed. I do not want an official calling a travel when they might not have seen the entire play. Usually travel calls are the first thing I comment in the locker room about. Usually a partner called something that did not happen. I just know if at the end of the game you make a call like that, you better be right. This play will be reviewed over and over if a team loses based on that possession.

Peace

[RonRef]

Three things to remember is this order:

1. The Game
2. Your Partners
3. Yourself

When making decisions just remember to follow this formula above.

Getting the call right is most important, if there is any crew discomfort that can be delt with later.

[ChuckElias]

I have developed a couple different pre-games. You can find them here: Looking for a detailed pre-game

[BOBBYMO]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That sounds wonderful, but what if they are completely wrong? What if they "think" they saw something that the official in their primary clearly saw? One of the things about travel calls as this is commonly missed. I do not want an official calling a travel when they might not have seen the entire play. Usually travel calls are the first thing I comment in the locker room about. Usually a partner called something that did not happen. I just know if at the end of the game you make a call like that, you better be right. This play will be reviewed over and over if a team loses based on that possession.

Peace

J_Rut

I agree with you but at the same time...I believe that you should never make any call that you are not 100% sure of.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

J_Rut

I agree with you but at the same time...I believe that you should never make any call that you are not 100% sure of.

The problem with your theory is the fact that most calls like this are not 100% correct. Is trusting your partner that difficult?

Peace

[zebraman]

Official's personal philosophies are influenced by experiences that have happened to them. When our state first started doing 3-person, I thought that straying out of our primary and secondary areas to help a partner a little bit now and then was acceptable. I don't believe that anymore.

About halfway thought that first season of 3-person, I was working a closely-contested game with two veteran partners. The partner working the trail position at the time is top notch and has worked a 4A state championship. My L is solid, but not a guy I'd want to work a huge game with. So I'm C with a couple of players in my area but they aren't being competitive with each other at all. So I stray and watch the drive out of the T's area instead of getting myself into rebounding position as I should. A jumble of players get in between the T and A1 so he has no view of the shot. A shot is taken right in front of the L, just outside the key on the side opposite me. I see a fair amount of contact on the arm by B1 from my C position. The L has no whistle. I hesitate and then come in to take the call. No problems and we shoot 2.

Later in the game, I realize that my partner (who was the L in the sitch I just mentioned) is getting questioned on almost every call by the coaches. Even the routine ones. Why? Because I took away his credibility by taking a call right in front of him. Even if my call was correct, I just told everyone in the gym (and especially the coaches) that I did not trust my partner.

What would be better for the game..... allowing that contact to go uncalled or making the "right call" and taking away my partner's credibility like I did?

I should NOT have made that call and I apologized to him for it after the game.

Z

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Official's personal philosophies are influenced by experiences that have happened to them. When our state first started doing 3-person, I thought that straying out of our primary and secondary areas to help a partner a little bit now and then was acceptable. I don't believe that anymore.

About halfway thought that first season of 3-person, I was working a closely-contested game with two veteran partners. The partner working the trail position at the time is top notch and has worked a 4A state championship. My L is solid, but not a guy I'd want to work a huge game with. So I'm C with a couple of players in my area but they aren't being competitive with each other at all. So I stray and watch the drive out of the T's area instead of getting myself into rebounding position as I should. A jumble of players get in between the T and A1 so he has no view of the shot. A shot is taken right in front of the L, just outside the key on the side opposite me. I see a fair amount of contact on the arm by B1 from my C position. The L has no whistle. I hesitate and then come in to take the call. No problems and we shoot 2.

Later in the game, I realize that my partner (who was the L in the sitch I just mentioned) is getting questioned on almost every call by the coaches. Even the routine ones. Why? Because I took away his credibility by taking a call right in front of him. Even if my call was correct, I just told everyone in the gym (and especially the coaches) that I did not trust my partner.

What would be better for the game..... allowing that contact to go uncalled or making the "right call" and taking away my partner's credibility like I did?

I should NOT have made that call and I apologized to him for it after the game.

Z

I tend to disagree with you, you made the right call because the game comes first. If what you wrote is correct this official doesn't have any credibility if you make that call or not. If you don't make that call the coaches still get on him and now they get on the entire crew for not seeing the obvious foul. The problem was not with you making the call but with a lead not making the call. The lead and trail should just thank you for picking up the call. We are a team out there.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by RonRef

I tend to disagree with you, you made the right call because the game comes first. If what you wrote is correct this official doesn't have any credibility if you make that call or not. If you don't make that call the coaches still get on him and now they get on the entire crew for not seeing the obvious foul. The problem was not with you making the call but with a lead not making the call. The lead and trail should just thank you for picking up the call. We are a team out there.

And team members trust each other. I cut my partner's legs out from under him by taking his call. Since it was right in front of him, maybe he had a better angle than I did and maybe it was a call that could have been passed on.

That partner is pretty solid. Not the best official every, but certainly competent. He could have handled a conversation with a coach about why he did not make the call. I took that chance away from him.

The problem was me straying out of my coverage area. I was wrong. The game would have been better of without me putting air in my whistle in that situation.

Z

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

And team members trust each other. I cut my partner's legs out from under him by taking his call. Since it was right in front of him, maybe he had a better angle than I did and maybe it was a call that could have been passed on.

That partner is pretty solid. Not the best official every, but certainly competent. He could have handled a conversation with a coach about why he did not make the call. I took that chance away from him.

The problem was me straying out of my coverage area. I was wrong. The game would have been better of without me putting air in my whistle in that situation.

Z

When you talked to him after the game what did he say that he saw? Was the foul marginal or was it a foul you thought you saw? I have worked games when I am the lead and there is a drive from the wing and there is contact right in front of me on the backside and I can't see a thing because the play blows up on you and the Trail comes in with a great help call. The play was three feet in front of me and an officials from 20 feet with a better look comes in and gets the call.