Race card played

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, Jim, that's exactly what the coach said- that Larry was a bigot. I'm kinda missing whatever point that you're trying to make with that statement. And, yeah, if a person is making bigoted statements, then there's usually a pretty good chance that that person actually is a bigot. That's kinda irrelevant anyway though because the coach got thrown for making a racial comment, not for what he might be. Iow, he was penalized solely for his actions, and rightfully so imo.

I'm saying the Asst Coach calling the official a bigot doesn't mean the Asst Coach is a racist or a bigot. It just means he has a big mouth. He may have any number of motivations for saying that other than his own personal bigotry.

Calling someone a bigot doesn't make you a bigot. If it does, then you're a bigot, because you just called the coach a bigot. And I guess I'm a bigot because I just called you a bigot.

This is circular reasoning.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I'm saying the Asst Coach calling the official a bigot doesn't mean the Asst Coach is a racist or a bigot. It just means he has a big mouth. He may have any number of motivations for saying that other than his own personal bigotry.

Calling someone a bigot doesn't make you a bigot. If it does, then you're a bigot, because you just called the coach a bigot. And I guess I'm a bigot because I just called you a bigot.

This is circular reasoning.

Yeah, Jim, the assistant coach might really be the nicest guy in the world, but again, that's completely and totally irrelevant. We penalize participants in a game for what they do, not for what they are. The assistant coach made an obvious racial comment imo; also imo, he deserved to be tossed for making that racial comment. Others may certainly disagree; that is their right also.

That's linear reasoning.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I'm saying the Asst Coach calling the official a bigot doesn't mean the Asst Coach is a racist or a bigot. It just means he has a big mouth. He may have any number of motivations for saying that other than his own personal bigotry.

Calling someone a bigot doesn't make you a bigot. If it does, then you're a bigot, because you just called the coach a bigot. And I guess I'm a bigot because I just called you a bigot.

This is circular reasoning.

Again, it doesn't make any difference whether the guy is a bigot or not. No one is saying he is or isn't. THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. It's a racist remark, based on the reason he called him a bigot.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Again, it doesn't make any difference whether the guy is a bigot or not. No one is saying he is or isn't. THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. It's a racist remark, based on the reason he called him a bigot.

You are missing my point entirely. Calling someone a bigot is not necessarily, in and of itself a racist remark.

It may even be a true remark.

It may be a stupid remark, in that the person saying it might be misinterpreting events.

It may be the sign of someone having a chip on their shoulder.

It may even actually be a racist remark.

Think about it. If you call Archie Bunker a bigot, is that a racist remark?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You are missing my point entirely. Calling someone a bigot is not necessarily, in and of itself a racist remark.

It may even be a true remark.

I suppose it doesn't matter whether it's true or not, racist or not. It's unsportsmanlike to say it, and deserves a T, just like saying "You're the worst ref I've ever seen". Automatic whack, regardless of looking at the coach's schedule to see who worked there last week or the week before.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You are missing my point entirely. Calling someone a bigot is not necessarily, in and of itself a racist remark.

Jim, I was well aware of what your position was from your very first post. It's nothing new to me. You don't feel that calling someone a "bigot" is a racist remark. Well, that's your opinion, and I've already stated that you are certainly entitled to it.

My opinion is that you're completely wrong. My opinion is that calling someone a "bigot" under the circumstances outlined in Larry's first post could not possibly be interpreted as anything but a racially-related remark. Obviously Larry, who was there and had it pulled on him, thought it was racial in nature too, right from the git-go. He's already posted to that effect.

If you want to tolerate that kinda stuff, hey, go ahead. I won't...now or ever.

We just disagree, and neither one of us is gonna change the other's mind.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you want to tolerate that kinda stuff, hey, go ahead. I won't...now or ever.

We just disagree, and neither one of us is gonna change the other's mind.

I know Jim can speak for himself. When did Jim say this comment was to be tolerated? I must have missed those words he put on this site. I think all Jim is saying (and I am saying as well) that the comment in itself is an opinion. Now even if the coach was 1000% correct that is his opinion. Now if someone has the opinion we are cheating, you cannot just ignore it and toss it away. Calling someone a bigot does not make you a racist, but in the context of the game that kind of personal comment would not be ignored. I do not know if that comment would be considered a flagrant foul, but it probably would be a T at the very least in my opinion. The coach just accused the officials of having bias. In my opinion this is not much different than if the coach pointing out the foul total and saying you live in the same town of his opponent. I agree calling someone a bigot might have a racially charged response, but to call it racist in my opinion is ridiculous. Remember that is my opinion and no one is going to change that. I have been doing this for some time. I can form my own opinion on this and many other topics.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You are missing my point entirely. Calling someone a bigot is not necessarily, in and of itself a racist remark.

I agree. Never said that it was.

It may even be a true remark.

I agree.

It may be a stupid remark, in that the person saying it might be misinterpreting events.

I agree.

It may be the sign of someone having a chip on their shoulder.

I agree.

It may even actually be a racist remark.

I agree.

Think about it. If you call Archie Bunker a bigot, is that a racist remark?

Yes, it could be.


Now, my point.

It makes absolutely no difference whether the official was a bigot or not.

It makes absolutely no difference whether the coach was a bigot or not.

That's not the point, although you continue to hammer it home for some reason.

What matters is that it was a racist remark.

Why?

Because he called the official a bigot based on his belief that the official was making calls against his team because of the color of their skin.

Do you disagree with that last statement?

Do you not see the racist implications in that statement?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1) I know Jim can speak for himself. When did Jim say this comment was to be tolerated?

2) I agree calling someone a bigot might have a racially charged response, but to call it racist in my opinion is ridiculous. Remember that is my opinion and no one is going to change that. I have been doing this for some time. I can form my own opinion on this and many other topics.

1) Well, that point is completely irrelevant.I'm not arguing that Jim ever said that the comment should be tolerated. I disagree completely with Jim's statement that the comment wasn't racial in nature.

2) I never said that anyone... you, Jim or anyone else...isn't entitled to their own opinion. It is my opinion though, for the record if I haven't previously stated it, that both of your opinions that the "bigot" remark wasn't racially related is just completely ludicrous.

We just disagree. Waste of time to debate it further.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Well, that point is completely irrelevant.I'm not arguing that Jim ever said that the comment should be tolerated. I disagree completely with Jim's statement that the comment wasn't racial in nature.

Well it has sounded to me (I will only speak for me now) that you were suggesting that something was extra special or inappropriate about the coach's comments because he called someone a bigot. I find the comment just like many others made about official's integrity it just happen to accuse him of racism.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) I never said that anyone... you, Jim or anyone else...isn't entitled to their own opinion. It is my opinion though, for the record if I haven't previously stated it, that both of your opinions that the "bigot" remark wasn't racially related is just completely ludicrous.

It involves race, so what? That is the crux of this issue in my opinion is that many do not want to be called a racist or a bigot (under any circumstances) and instead of taking the comments in context of the game and the everyday questioning of official’s integrity folks have to be offended that anyone suggest that it was not a big deal.

On the flip side of all of this, when someone suggests something might offend them, then those things are mocked and criticized heavily. Now because someone is called a racist the sky is falling. Just more of the same I guess.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It involves race, so what?

So what?

Well, personally I'm not going to allow any racial, religious, ethnic, etc. comments to be made in any game that I officiate. I don't really care who those comments are coming from either. And I also don't get mad when I hear those types of comments. I didn't fall off a turnip truck, wander into the gym and have someone ask me if I'd like to officiate that night's game. I certainly realize that these comments are gonna be made occasionally; I'd haveta be awful damn naive or just plain stoopid to believe otherwise. But when comments like these are made, I have zero tolerance for them. I just unload the person that made the comments and then write a report to everyone that I can think of. Any further action after that is up to their league/governing body.

Questioning an official's integrity and callling an official a bigot are completely different acts.

Btw, I don't let anybody swear at me either, and that's got nothing to do with anyone questioning my integrity. There's other acts beside racial comments that will earn a quick flagrant "T" from me.

As I said, we disagree.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Questioning an official's integrity and callling an official a bigot are completely different acts.

I disagree. Based on the context the sitch described the assistant coach was very clearly questioning the official's integrity. However, rather than alleging favoritism based on home town, team affiliation, alumni status, nepotism, caving to vocal coach/fans, or one of the more frequently heard accusations, this coach asserted bigotry as the basis for the official's perceived dishonest behavior. Aside from bigotry being more of a hot-button social issue, it is no different than any other affront to one's integrity.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

People have the right to make judgments about race or anything else for that matter that they can come up with. Some of those accusations will be to your face; many will be behind your back. Coaches and players accuse officials all the time of being bias because of where they think we live or who we have some kind of relationship with. If it bothers you so much that "race" was the reason bias was claimed, then maybe officiating is not for you. That is a very common accusation where I live whether you are Black or whether you are white.

The point of all of this, there are worst things that could have happened. I seriously doubt this official is going to lose anything because of this accusation.

Peace

Rut...did you actually read my post? I never said I was "bothered" by being called a racist or that I'm too sensitive or too thin-skinned to officiate...couldn't be farther from the truth. I wasn't even addressing the significance of accusations being thrown around on the court.

Instead, if you'll re-read my post you'll see that all I was addressing was your assertion that "Race is never a card; it is a reality of life". I used an experience I had on the floor to demonstrate that it can be and is used in an attempt to influence...it didn't work for the player in question because I'm not intimidated by ignorance and I refused to empower his accusation by overreacting to it and allowing it to become an issue.

All I'm saying is that people use hot-button topics or issues to push agendas and/or try to gain advantages. Race is certainly used in that manner; however, that doesn't detract from or dilute the reality of racism in our society which you have so eloquently described on many occasions in the past. But to say people don't abuse such topics for perceived advantage, influence, or even intimidation, then you're burying your head in the sand to that reality. I suspect you'll disagree with me, but disagreement is okay.

I love officiating...a few bonehead yahoos who try to manipulate me on the floor aren't going to change that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Rut...did you actually read my post? I never said I was "bothered" by being called a racist or that I'm too sensitive or too thin-skinned to officiate...couldn't be farther from the truth. I wasn't even addressing the significance of accusations being thrown around on the court.

Instead, if you'll re-read my post you'll see that all I was addressing was your assertion that "Race is never a card; it is a reality of life". I used an experience I had on the floor to demonstrate that it can be and is used in an attempt to influence...it didn't work for the player in question because I'm not intimidated by ignorance and I refused to empower his accusation by overreacting to it and allowing it to become an issue.

If you noticed I responded to only one of your statements. I did not respond to everything you said. So you can stop trying to convince me of your feelings.

Originally Posted by Corndog89

All I'm saying is that people use hot-button topics or issues to push agendas and/or try to gain advantages. Race is certainly used in that manner; however, that doesn't detract from or dilute the reality of racism in our society which you have so eloquently described on many occasions in the past. But to say people don't abuse such topics for perceived advantage, influence, or even intimidation, then you're burying your head in the sand to that reality. I suspect you'll disagree with me, but disagreement is okay.

I love officiating...a few bonehead yahoos who try to manipulate me on the floor aren't going to change that.

You are actually surprised that someone might use an issue to their advantage? Is this not the American way?

Even if someone accuses someone of racism, not sure how they get an advantage by doing so? What did this coach get out of this accusation? If anything he lost credibility. If there was any racism involved, it was personal at best. Some of us are much more concerned with institutions and structures than what one guy might think. So I really do not get why someone would be so put off if someone accuses you of something like this and you know in your heart you have done nothing wrong.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Congrats on the compliments & on handling this well. Like Tom said, what this jerk said is not really a big deal, unless you make it a big deal. Just quietly take care of business.

He issued a T to a player who said, “Bullsh!t call!” and then T'd the asst coach who complained about it. Isn't that having rabbit ears? Isn't that what you said about my removing a fan who yelled, "That's bullsh!t."?
What was that you were saying in the other thread to me about walking and talking?....

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So what if you were called a bigot, you will be called a lot more if you continue to officate. .... You were already called a bigot,

Is that inappropriate language for an NFHS game? What would you do about it? Would you have word with the coach? Or perhaps this is another one that you would just ignore?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not a racist remark. The coach was accusing him of something. Not sure how it is racist to accuse someone of a certain behavior or action.

That's not racist??? Are you for real???

What do you think that something is? Perhaps it is being a racist! What gave me that clue...hmmm... Oh, it was when the coach said, "YOU ARE A BIGOT!"

Well, when that behavior is racism, it kind of puts it in the ballpark. Maybe, just maybe...

Lastly just for clarification, would it be racist to accuse someone of being a member of a certain hood-wearing, cross-buring secret society? Or accusing someone of wearing a white hood and burning a cross?

What if a coach said to you, "You should be lynched?" Would you consider that racist?