LSU/Stanford charge (Women's)

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

The fact that you can't spell properly coupled with the fact that you are a college english professor doesn't help getting your point across.

If I told someone that I am a math teacher but I can't figure out 20% for a tip then I am showing my a$$.

You had the ability to double check your last post and you still misspelled a number of words. The words "childdish", "imperitive" and this last one is probably the best "apostrophe's". This should NOT have an apostrophe.

I hope for your sake that the English department at your college does not see this post.

Like I said when it is a requirement not to have misspelled words in a post on a message forum then get back to me. As far as my English department don't worry yourself.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

Like I said when it is a requirement not to have misspelled words in a post on a message forum then get back to me. As far as my English department don't worry yourself.

I guess I'm trying to understand how an English professor would misspell these words in the first place.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

I disagree. Why would the T have first crack at the call. The ball has just entered and left the T primary.

Nate, you're missing the point - that is the T's call because those are the NCAA-W mechanics. You may disagree with the reasoning behind the mechanics, but don't say you disagree with it being the T's call, because it was. If you have trouble picturing the reasoning, think of it like this: say you are the T, and you start a 5-sec. closely-guarded count in your area. As the ball handler dribbles into the C's area, you continue to stay with the play and the count, even though it's not "in your area". This is the same reasoning behind the T staying with the drive all the way to the basket, if the drive started in T's area. It is not the same as the NCAA-M or Fed. mechanics, so you may not be aware of the differences. But it is a reason why the L did not have a call on that play, not necessarily because it was in the L's area and they passed on it.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Nate, you're missing the point - that is the T's call because those are the NCAA-W mechanics. You may disagree with the reasoning behind the mechanics, but don't say you disagree with it being the T's call, because it was. If you have trouble picturing the reasoning, think of it like this: say you are the T, and you start a 5-sec. closely-guarded count in your area. As the ball handler dribbles into the C's area, you continue to stay with the play and the count, even though it's not "in your area". This is the same reasoning behind the T staying with the drive all the way to the basket, if the drive started in T's area. It is not the same as the NCAA-M or Fed. mechanics, so you may not be aware of the differences. But it is a reason why the L did not have a call on that play, not necessarily because it was in the L's area and they passed on it.

You are right, I am not that familiar with the women's game. Your explanation is good, but I just don't understand the reasoning behind it that's all.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

I disagree. Why would the T have first crack at the call. The ball has just entered and left the T primary. The T should have been concerned with contact made throughout his/her primary. So how could the T have seen all this plus noticed to see if Augustus was in proper position. I'm not saying that the T can't make this call, but the L should have first crack at it b/c he/she isn't following the ball as closely through the T primary and can better see if Augustus was there or not. I think the L passed on the call.

Nate, though this thread has meandered off course a few times since I initiated it, this is basically where I was looking for discussion to go. What is everyone's philosophy as to who should have 1st crack when a secondary defender (yes, I know, it's not an official phrase in the NFHS/NCAA rulebooks) slides in to draw a charging/PC foul in or near the lane in front of the Lead?

I subscribe to the same school of thought as you, that the Trail (or in some cases the 'C') doesn't have the best view as to initial LGP of the secondary defender and the Lead should take responsibility for that call. But others, like RockyRoad, have the philosophy that the official from where the drive initiated takes 1st crack at any resulting crash. It's a play that needs to be pre-gamed to make sure everyone is on the same page.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

I guess I'm trying to understand how an English professor would misspell these words in the first place.

I guess that needs to be explained to too. There could be several reasons. Maybe I am 75 years old and my typing skills suck. That doesn't mean I can't spell. Also, notice I didn't say that I am a spelling professor. I am a professor of English/Modern Literature. Anyway back to topic...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

Certain calls have to be made no matter when they occur, early or late (shooter being contacted, push in the back on rebounded....). But some things have to be much more severe in late game situations.

This is where we also disagree. Let me ask you this - when does the situation change from "regular game situations" to "late game situations"? 5 minutes left? 1 minute left? 10 seconds left? Does the score matter? Where do you draw that line? Does the line change from game to game? And, most importantly, how do the players know where that line is drawn? Let's take this play for instance. At the 10 minute mark in the first half I call a charge on the Stanford player. Then at the 12 minute mark in the second half I have the exact same play happen, so I call a charge on the Stanford player. Then, with 4.8 seconds left, the exact same play happens again, only this time I let it go. Why? Just because it's a "late game situation"? How do I explain that to the LSU defender who sacrificed her body to take the charge and got rewarded the previous 2 plays, but in this case she doesn't? How do I let the players know, "Ok, we're now in that late game situation, so you're gonna need to foul harder"? Is there a signal for that?

Ok, maybe I'm a little over the top, but I hope you get the point. Consistency is very important in a game, and most players adjust. If you want to discuss whether this particular play was a charge, block, or no-call, fine. But be careful about saying you wouldn't make this call in a "late game situation".

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

Maybe I am 75 years old and my typing skills suck.

Well, if you're 75 and a basketball ref, you're my new hero!

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

This is where we also disagree. Let me ask you this - when does the situation change from "regular game situations" to "late game situations"? 5 minutes left? 1 minute left? 10 seconds left? Does the score matter? Where do you draw that line? Does the line change from game to game? And, most importantly, how do the players know where that line is drawn? Let's take this play for instance. At the 10 minute mark in the first half I call a charge on the Stanford player. Then at the 12 minute mark in the second half I have the exact same play happen, so I call a charge on the Stanford player. Then, with 4.8 seconds left, the exact same play happens again, only this time I let it go. Why? Just because it's a "late game situation"? How do I explain that to the LSU defender who sacrificed her body to take the charge and got rewarded the previous 2 plays, but in this case she doesn't? How do I let the players know, "Ok, we're now in that late game situation, so you're gonna need to foul harder"? Is there a signal for that?

Ok, maybe I'm a little over the top, but I hope you get the point. Consistency is very important in a game, and most players adjust. If you want to discuss whether this particular play was a charge, block, or no-call, fine. But be careful about saying you wouldn't make this call in a "late game situation".

I understand exactly what you are saying. I think that most officials and players understand late game situations. I think you were a little over the top, but I know exactly what your saying. Lets say for argument sake that the call wasn't a charge but a hand check on LSU. Is this a call that your going to make?? Hands, IMO, are to much a part of defense already, but with 5 seconds on the clock and a Final Four berth at stake are you going to call the slightly displacing hand check. I have had this discussion before with some people and there are certain violation/fouls that we ignore very often. Take the UCONN/George Mason game. With 32 seconds left in the game the T official calls a palming/carrying violation. It was most likely a violation but no advantage was gained. The defender was still right in front of the offensive player. This is something that you might call in the beginning of the game to discourage it from happening for the entire 40 min. but it's not something you tweet about with 30 sec. to go and no advantage gained.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops

But some things have to be much more severe in late game situations.

That says it all right there imo.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, if you're 75 and a basketball ref, you're my new hero!

LOL...not quite there yet!!!

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That says it all right there imo.

Glad that does it for ya JR!! I use the word severity, you use the words advantage/disadvantage. I guess your calling the slightly displacing hand check that the LSU player so appropriately place on Wiggins hip as she drove toward the charge too huh?? Was an advantage gain?? OBVIOUSLY there was. You are making that call though...with 5 seconds left in the ELITE 8.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

This is where we also disagree. Let me ask you this - when does the situation change from "regular game situations" to "late game situations"? 5 minutes left? 1 minute left? 10 seconds left? Does the score matter? Where do you draw that line? Does the line change from game to game? And, most importantly, how do the players know where that line is drawn? Let's take this play for instance. At the 10 minute mark in the first half I call a charge on the Stanford player. Then at the 12 minute mark in the second half I have the exact same play happen, so I call a charge on the Stanford player. Then, with 4.8 seconds left, the exact same play happens again, only this time I let it go. Why? Just because it's a "late game situation"? How do I explain that to the LSU defender who sacrificed her body to take the charge and got rewarded the previous 2 plays, but in this case she doesn't? How do I let the players know, "Ok, we're now in that late game situation, so you're gonna need to foul harder"? Is there a signal for that?

Ok, maybe I'm a little over the top, but I hope you get the point. Consistency is very important in a game, and most players adjust. If you want to discuss whether this particular play was a charge, block, or no-call, fine. But be careful about saying you wouldn't make this call in a "late game situation".

IMO you should not (note I did not say "can not") have a call in the last couple of mintues of the game that you did not have earlier (i.e. 3sec, illegal screen, carry, etc). That mindset certainly does not cover all situations and cannot always be taken literally.

I also think the level of contact required to call a foul is increased a little bit in late game situations vs earlier game situations. I'll call a hand check, illegal screen, block, etc. in the last few minutes, but the amount of contact or advantage gained should be more than earlier - not substantially more, but certainly more. This is a "feel" thing - it's very hard to illustrate via the written word in a chat room. The reason why the officials you see working the games on TV this time of year are there, is because they have mastered this "feel".

[truerookie]

ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!! I do not come to this forum to view individuals (fellow officials) verbally attack each other. If you ask me, I know you are not all of you are being unprofessional for the avocation. We are all entitled to our opinions and perspectives "RESPECT" that. You may see it one way, I may see it another. All this estrogen and testostrone reference is unnecessary imo. You can state your point and move on. If someone disagrees with you, they are entitled to do that. It does not make them less of an official. We all come here because, we want to stay connected to individual who enjoys being official and learn from each other. If not, why do we come? Let not lose our focus, we must continue to discuss rules and how to apply them correctly. Good Day

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

IMO you should not (note I did not say "can not") have a call in the last couple of mintues of the game that you did not have earlier (i.e. 3sec, illegal screen, carry, etc). That mindset certainly does not cover all situations and cannot always be taken literally.

I also think the level of contact required to call a foul is increased a little bit in late game situations vs earlier game situations. I'll call a hand check, illegal screen, block, etc. in the last few minutes, but the amount of contact or advantage gained should be more than earlier - not substantially more, but certainly more. This is a "feel" thing - it's very hard to illustrate via the written word in a chat room. The reason why the officials you see working the games on TV this time of year are there, is because they have mastered this "feel".

My thoughts exactly.