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-   -   LSU/Stanford charge (Women's) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/25788-lsu-stanford-charge-womens.html)

Raymond Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:36pm
LSU/Stanford charge (Women's)
 
Any opinions on the Charge call on Wiggins?

IMO Agustus was there initially but then threw her body into Wiggins and then, well I don't want to say flopped, but exxagerated the contact and fell to the ground (would that be the definition of a flop? :confused: ).

Again, I'm not an Elite 8 official, but JMO that maybe that could've been a no call or a Block. BTW, the Stanford player hit the 3-pointer after the crash.

Nevadaref Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:39pm
I didn't have any problem with the call. She had position and minor movement is not a big deal.

jbduke Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:11am
I think the play was ruled correctly; however, it looked a lot less obvious to me on replay than it did at full speed.

tmp44 Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I didn't have any problem with the call. She had position and minor movement is not a big deal.
I slow-moed it on my TiVo at it showed her right foot moving forward towards the offensive player, but then coming down onto the ground right before contact was made. But that being said, at game speed, contact was in the torso, hands were up, and it looked like she beat her to the spot. Charge.

Another thought...the PC call was made by the T. Notice that the L did not blow his whistle or make any sort of mechanic, and this was certainly close, if not w/n, a possible double coverage area. Then watch the mechanics of the T, no fist, straight into the wave-off, then punch. Close play like that, could have been a possible blarge. Thoughts?

Nevadaref Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
Another thought...the PC call was made by the T. Notice that the L did not blow his whistle or make any sort of mechanic, and this was certainly close, if not w/n, a possible double coverage area. Then watch the mechanics of the T, no fist, straight into the wave-off, then punch. Close play like that, could have been a possible blarge. Thoughts?
In the past year or so I have been pregaming this type of play. The one in which A1 beats B1 with the dribble and B2 comes over to defend and there is a crash. Whose responsibility is the secondary defender?

I've stated that while one official, in this case the Trail, could have A1 and B1 in his primary when the play starts and then stay with those two players, another official, in this case the Lead, has the secondary defender, B2, in his primary the whole time. This other official is then the one watching that defender. Therefore, it makes sense that this other official would have the best knowledge of the secondary defender's positioning. Since it is this defender and not B1 who is invovled in the crash with the offensive player, I've been advocating that we let the official from whose primary the secondary defender comes make the decision on the play.

So in this case I would have prefered the Lead make the call. The Lead has the best idea of whether or not that defender got there in time. The T was focused on the dribbler and her initial defender which is no longer in the play.
That is how I have been pregaming it lately.

Of course, if the Lead doesn't make a call for some odd reason and needs help, then the T is the helper and should come get it.


Lastly, this was in an NCAA womens' game and I know that NCAAW floor coverage is different and that could have mattered on this play as the Lead is responsible for that 3pt shooter in the corner. I don't care for this, but that is the way they do it.

Raymond Tue Mar 28, 2006 07:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
Another thought...the PC call was made by the T. Notice that the L did not blow his whistle or make any sort of mechanic, and this was certainly close, if not w/n, a possible double coverage area. Then watch the mechanics of the T, no fist, straight into the wave-off, then punch. Close play like that, could have been a possible blarge. Thoughts?

In the past year or so I have been pregaming this type of play. The one in which A1 beats B1 with the dribble and B2 comes over to defend and there is a crash. Whose responsibility is the secondary defender?

I've stated that while one official, in this case the Trail, could have A1 and B1 in his primary when the play starts and then stay with those two players, another official, in this case the Lead, has the secondary defender, B2, in his primary the whole time. This other official is then the one watching that defender. Therefore, it makes sense that this other official would have the best knowledge of the secondary defender's positioning. Since it is this defender and not B1 who is invovled in the crash with the offensive player, I've been advocating that we let the official from whose primary the secondary defender comes make the decision on the play.

So in this case I would have prefered the Lead make the call. The Lead has the best idea of whether or not that defender got there in time. The T was focused on the dribbler and her initial defender which is no longer in the play.
That is how I have been pregaming it lately.

Of course, if the Lead doesn't make a call for some odd reason and needs help, then the T is the helper and should come get it.


Lastly, this was in an NCAA womens' game and I know that NCAAW floor coverage is different and that could have mattered on this play as the Lead is responsible for that 3pt shooter in the corner. I don't care for this, but that is the way they do it.
Nevada/TMP, I had the same thoughts on the play...it's hard for the trail to pick up that secondary defender b/c she's focused on the primary matchup involving A1/B1. I too would have like to have seen that whislte come from the lead who would have had better knowledge of Augustus' LGP.

AZ_REF Tue Mar 28, 2006 08:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbduke
I think the play was ruled correctly; however, it looked a lot less obvious to me on replay than it did at full speed.
I totally agree. At full speed this play looked like an easy charge call, so much so that I was screaming great call at the TV and preceeded to scare the crap out of my girlfriend. That's what she gets for reading in bed and not paying attention.

However on instant reply I shut up pretty quick. It looked like it may have been a block but I didn't see a great angle. I thought as a whole the crew did pretty good, if Gator gets to the final four, we should all send him a pair of shoes. :)

truerookie Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Lastly, this was in an NCAA womens' game and I know that NCAAW floor coverage is different and that could have mattered on this play as the Lead is responsible for that 3pt shooter in the corner. I don't care for this, but that is the way they do it.
Nevadaref, I agree with everything you spoke of except, the lead primary coverage ends inside the 3pt line. It will be very rare for the lead to give a 3pt attempt signal if at all.

ChuckElias Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
Nevadaref, I agree with everything you spoke of except, the lead primary coverage ends inside the 3pt line. It will be very rare for the lead to give a 3pt attempt signal if at all.
Rook, re-read Nevada's statement. He's referring to NCAA Women's coverage. The women do indeed make the Lead responsible for the 3-point area below the FT line extended.

Nate1224hoops Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:30am
I TIVO'ed the game and watched the play over and over. I feel that in that situation in the game (less than 5 seconds) you have to let the players decided the game. I saw Augustus falling back before contact was ever made. She obviously excentuated the contact. The lead never made an effort to make the call and the play was less than 3 feet away. Also the ball was already out of Wiggins hands before contact occurred. IMO you gotta pass on that one and let players decided the game. Certain calls have to be made at the end of a game, but I feel that this call was kicked.

icallfouls Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
In the past year or so I have been pregaming this type of play. The one in which A1 beats B1 with the dribble and B2 comes over to defend and there is a crash. Whose responsibility is the secondary defender?

I've stated that while one official, in this case the Trail, could have A1 and B1 in his primary when the play starts and then stay with those two players, another official, in this case the Lead, has the secondary defender, B2, in his primary the whole time. This other official is then the one watching that defender. Therefore, it makes sense that this other official would have the best knowledge of the secondary defender's positioning. Since it is this defender and not B1 who is invovled in the crash with the offensive player, I've been advocating that we let the official from whose primary the secondary defender comes make the decision on the play.

So in this case I would have prefered the Lead make the call. The Lead has the best idea of whether or not that defender got there in time. The T was focused on the dribbler and her initial defender which is no longer in the play.
That is how I have been pregaming it lately.

Of course, if the Lead doesn't make a call for some odd reason and needs help, then the T is the helper and should come get it.


Lastly, this was in an NCAA womens' game and I know that NCAAW floor coverage is different and that could have mattered on this play as the Lead is responsible for that 3pt shooter in the corner. I don't care for this, but that is the way they do it.
JMO, but I thought it would have been a better no call. In talking with a D1 ref/friend of mine and something that I cover during pre-game, it is a general rule of thumb not to reward a player for attempting to draw a PC foul on a player that no longer has the ball. The only caveat to the play is an offensive player that is still going strong into the defense and doesn't slow/attempt to stop. I would go so far to say that is not a call that was made alot at that level.

Raymond Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate1224hoops
I saw Augustus falling back before contact was ever made. She obviously excentuated the contact. The lead never made an effort to make the call and the play was less than 3 feet away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls
JMO, but I thought it would have been a better no call.
I agree that a "no call" may have been best in this situation. In the replay you see the Lead looking dead on the play and he chose to pass.

I think this play goes directly back to the block/charge/(traveling) video thread (and Nevada's post in this thread) where I brought up the subject of primary and secondary defenders. The Lead is in perfect position to referee the defense as it applies to the secondary defender (B2). The Trail had a lot on her plate already with a very athletic A1 penetrating against tight defense from B1.

pizanno Tue Mar 28, 2006 03:08pm
Textbook Pass and Crash
 
Lead goes with the ball. Trail picks up the crash. No?

Let's see if that official moves on. I bet she does. Gutsy call. If she passes, then LSU has the gripe.

Rich Tue Mar 28, 2006 03:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
Nevadaref, I agree with everything you spoke of except, the lead primary coverage ends inside the 3pt line. It will be very rare for the lead to give a 3pt attempt signal if at all.
Rare? In an NCAAW game? Lead's primary in NCAAW goes all the way to the corner.

Raymond Tue Mar 28, 2006 03:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizanno
Lead goes with the ball. Trail picks up the crash. No?

Let's see if that official moves on. I bet she does. Gutsy call. If she passes, then LSU has the gripe.
She may move on. The parts of the game I saw were officiated very well. And in realtime that play appears to be a charge from her vantage point. My debate on this call is whether or not the Trail had the best view of the secondary defender. In the replay the Lead is staring directly at the defender in question (Ausgustus) but doesn't have a whistle.

Had the Trail decided to pass on the call she would not have been hurt by the replay. Replay clearly shows Augustus flinging her pelvis into Wiggins and then flopping to the floor.


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