Terrible, just awful display

[crazy voyager]

I called a game wendsday, evening game. Starts up fine, one team is fouling a lot more then the other and gets more fouls, some whining from the coach but she calms down as I give her the SS.
5-3 after 1st qtr (yeah I know, I have no idea how a team can make that few points either), blue is outfouling red 7-4 or something like that, so quite even, blue coach is still forward complaining though, I said "you foucse on coaching and we'll do our jobs"
2nd qtr, T'd a player for bouncing the ball, no complaints there, red end the qtr with two of their biggest players (14 and 16) having 4 and 3 fouls.

In the 3rd it's quite even, but blue still simply fouls more and nr 6 picks up her 5th in the 4th minute and goes out after some protest (not that much).
She came forward in the QTR brake and said she was absolutley sure she hadn't 5 fouls cause she counted her fouls. I just said "sorry, you're fouled out, and even if there is wrong in the score sheet, it's not a correcteble error at this point" she seamed to aceppt that and returned to her bench

the 4th qtr is getting really ugly though, in the 7th minute I have an offensive off ball charging wich could well've been an unsporting, nr9 gets it though and manages with a personal. How ever when red goes on offence, nr9 is called for unsporting defencive foul (I didn't call it so I don't know what it's for) then I have nr 12 loudly protesting and whining, I T'd her up, we shot 4. Then the coach loses it and tells her players to stop playing D, red gets to run all teh way through and score. Then blue dribbles the ball up, coach screams "pass to them!" nr9 (again) throws the ball straight in the face of an opponent, I DQ'd her, when I report that, the board asks who got the U, I say "nr9", I help them with the score sheet and then discovers that nr9 picked up her 5th with the U, and now got her 6th, so I call a Benchtechnical on coach for player having 6th foul, nr 12 doesn't get the message from the last foul and once again starts whining, I whacked her. I turn to the coach to tell her she just got a B so I say
"coach"
"Don't talk to me!" she simply turns her back, I walked away.

Blue still refuses to play D and the entire bench is now standing up cheering for red! The players are confused but simply runs and scores. I never T'd the coach even if I probably should, but it would just provoke her more. The game ends up, and as we stand at the board, a fight breaks out behind us, apperently nr9 has came in on the court and assulted a red player, then a women from the audience steps between and gets a fist, another goes in and gets a kick, by now there's chaos, mainly red players trying to get away , audiance trying to calm down players and blue players trying to hit anything that moves, blue coach is standing behind and watching. We break it up and it seams calm, but when we walk back to the table, the fight breaks out again! We break it up again, then we isolate the teams,blue coach is standing threatening us and says she has called the police. The blue team has finaly gotten into the locker room how ever the coach is not moving, even when "her" parents are trying to get her in.
we grab the score sheet and leaves without eaven changing shoes, we just walked straight out to the car (stopped once for signing the scoresheet).

Now I've got a massive report to write, and the womens from the audiance is going to police report nr 9 for assult too

These were girls 15 years old playing! I didn't excpect this to say the least... we'll see what happens with the report, but I wouldn't be suprised if the team's suspended from playing games for this season, and nr9 could probably be fined too I suppose, terrible really, and what's more terrible is that we two refs are both 14 years old! And gets put into this, NOT nice

[bgtg19]

Crazy Voyager, I apologize for not reading your post a little more closely. I had a difficult time following what was happening; your descriptions were not particularly clear. I did get enough of the gist to say that I'm sorry you had a game like that: No fun.

I, too, had a "terrible, just awful display" last night from a coach. It wasn't as bad as your game. The awfulness simply was a coach's cluelessness. BV game. Two evenly matched teams. Great kids on both sides with great attitudes. Two really good point guards, both playing tenacious defense against each other. One of the PGs did like to "touch" his opponent while on defense, but my partners and I rarely deemed it a foul/hand check and the PG who was being touched never lost control of the ball or had his progress impeded because of being touched.

That description, of course, allows you to know already that the Team A coach decides to start saying loudly "hand check" each time down the floor. After a few times of hearing that, the ball went OOB right in front of the coach. Before I administer the throw in, I say to Coach A: "Coach, we're not going to listen to you yell all night. If you've got a question, ask it. Otherwise, that's enough." Coach A says. "That guy's riding my player the whole way up the floor and you won't call it." I say: "I'm sorry Coach, I don't hear a question." And then I administer the throw in.

Clock operator on several occasions either let's the clock run when it should have stopped or forgets to start it when it should be running. It didn't give either team any advantage - it was a close game - but of course it's Coach A who stands up to complain. They guy basically can't help himself. He seems to think that the fact that the clock stayed at 7:40 for about 5 seconds while his team dribbled the ball in the second quarter is part of a conspiracy to rob him, HIM!, of this game.

To make a long story just slightly less long, I'll get to the fourth quarter. Team A is behind by 4 points with just under one minute to play. Team A is trying to foul to stop the clock. As soon as Trail sees contact from A1, he blows the whistle. The contact was slight, but my partners and I had pregamed that we'd get fouls to stop the clock, if any, early so that the contact would not have to get more severe to get our attention. Trail reports the foul and is informed by the table that it is A1's fifth foul. Trail informs coach that A1 is disqualified, asks for a sub, and signals to the table to start the 30-seconds. Coach A decides to use the time to complain to official that our crew had not been calling that contact all night and now we foul out his player on a horrible call like that. As I'm standing there watching (from across the court as C getting ready for FTs), I'm thinking, "I think he's crossed the line here, we've got to get him with a T." Partner (an experienced official) is patient. One of the captains from Team A, who is lined up along the lane, shouts over to his bench, "Come on coach, let's go." Coach A still complaining. Partner finally says: "Coach, your 30-seconds is up, I need a sub." Coach A starts to say something and partner calmly signals for a T.

As we clear the lanes (yes, to shoot the 1 and 1 first, then the 2 for the T), A2 says to me, shaking his head: "You could see that coming."

Normally, I have less tolerance for a blow hard like Coach A, because complaining coaches often are accompanied by complaining players and complaining fans. This game was different. The kids were great. The fans were respectful. Virtually the only problem in the gym was Coach A. Since he wasn't "poisoning" the environment - he was just standing out in it and embarassing himself - we didn't feel the urge to T him earlier. I asked my partner after the game about why he didn't T the coach for his comments during the disqualification wait and he said: "I knew he wasn't going to give me a sub so I thought I'd give him the T for something concrete rather than for something that somebody who wasn't here could question." Interesting.

[crazy voyager]

well you survived witohout the fight, and yeah I know the description is quite bad, but I've been sitting writting a report all day in swedish and I didn't feel like writing another 3 pages in english

and I realised the title sounds weird too well that's life when you're tired I suppose

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bgtg19

Trail informs coach that A1 is disqualified, asks for a sub, and signals to the table to start the 30-seconds. Coach A decides to use the time to complain to official that our crew had not been calling that contact all night and now we foul out his player on a horrible call like that. As I'm standing there watching (from across the court as C getting ready for FTs), I'm thinking, "I think he's crossed the line here, we've got to get him with a T." Partner (an experienced official) is patient. One of the captains from Team A, who is lined up along the lane, shouts over to his bench, "Come on coach, let's go." Coach A still complaining. Partner finally says: "Coach, your 30-seconds is up, I need a sub."

Your partner is too nice a guy. There's no warning required to the coach to get a sub up there. If the 30-second horn goes and there's no sub at the scorer's table, it's an automatic technical foul. The sub can't be on the way to the table when the horn goes; he has to actually be there.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by crazy voyager
what's more terrible is that we two refs are both 14 years old!

I've got one that is even "more terrible"...

any assigner that assigns two boys to a game where they are younger than the High School girl players...should have his/her head examined.

[ChrisSportsFan]

bgtg19, I to had a coach telling his team "we gotta foul to stop the clock". Then, when you call fouls on their slight contact, he complains "that's not a foul". I know they tape the games but maybe they should watch tape of themself.

[bgtg19]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Your partner is too nice a guy. There's no warning required to the coach to get a sub up there. If the 30-second horn goes and there's no sub at the scorer's table, it's an automatic technical foul. The sub can't be on the way to the table when the horn goes; he has to actually be there.

Welcome back, JR! I absolutely agree that no warning is *required* -- we end up doing a lot of things, mostly in the name of "game management" that are not *required*. I'm thinking here of the stop sign, or the request to get back in the coaching box, or the request to "get 'em on the floor" at the huddle after the second horn of a timeout. Forget this particular situation -- I think this coach had earned his T and had it coming -- but my question is more general: Do you think it is inappropriate or unwise, as a general matter, to give a coach one last chance to avoid the T?

I agree that we have rules authorization to penalize if the sub is not *at* the table, just wondering if this is one of those situations where if the sub is *on the way* to the table, it might better serve the game to refrain from rigidly using our authorization. I'm interested in your (and others') perspective.

[Back In The Saddle]

Crazy Voyager,

Sounds like a horrible, horrible game. I had a game that was considerably less horrible when I was first starting out that almost convinced me to give up officiating. And I was 35! I'm impressed that you handled it so well, and lived to tell

Just a couple of thoughts, admitedly based on an NFHS perspective. The Blue coach seems to me to be your biggest problem. Was there an assistant that was any better? If so, I would have thought about unloading the blue coach. Her "Don't talk to me" comment would have been a good opportunity. Of course, that would only be effective if you're reasonably hopeful that the assistant would get things back under control.

But when the coach told her players to stop playing D, and especially when she instructed her player to pass the ball to the other team, I think it's time for the game to be over. The coach is making a travesty of the game. Nothing good can come from this point onward. I don't know if FIBA rules allow you to do this, but I think it's probably the best thing for everybody.

Just something to think about.

Hang in there, you're next game is guaranteed to be better

[jeffpea]

bgtg19 - what a GREAT example of learning from experience! Your partner did absolutely the right thing by waiting for the 30-sec. period to expire before giving the T. If a coach deserves a T and you can give him one based on a clear cut violation of the rules, then you have removed yourself from any possible claims of bad judgement. Any administrator or assignor watching the game will have an easy time defending a violation of rules rather than engage in a "judgement" discussion.

I'm putting your end of game story in my "bag of tricks". This is exactly why this forum is valuable to the officiating community.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bgtg19
[/B]

I think this coach had earned his T and had it coming -- but my question is more general: Do you think it is inappropriate or unwise, as a general matter, to give a coach one last chance to avoid the T?

[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, I certainly do not think that it's inappropriate or unwise to try something to see if you can avoid a "T". I do think though that you have to handle each individual situation pretty much on it's own merits- and then do what you gotta do. Iow, there's no hard-and-fast procedure to follow to determine when you should or should not call a "T". In this particular case, the coach spent his whole 30-second substitution period yapping at the official. He deserved to be "T"ed up as soon as he didn't get a sub to the table by 30 seconds. On other occasions, maybe you can slip a "hurry up" in if the coach is just a little too involved giving instructions to his substitute/team and thus is a little slow getting a sub to the table.

In this particular game, I think that your partner did the absolutely right thing by issuing the "T"- I'm certainly not second-guessing him. I was just pointing out for general reference that a warning isn't necessary, by rule. Actually, the only hard part of giving out that "T" is trying to keep a grin off your face while you're doing so.

[MajorCord]

I had a rec game the other day, Green coach on other end of court. Ball goes out of bounds off of his player (clearly) under the basket. He is 60 feet away telling me what an awful call it is. He has been mouthy the whole game. I go down to ask if he really thought that he had a better angle from so far away. As I am approaching him, he is actually saying "Bring it on!" I warn him to keep quiet or face a "T". As I am walking away, he says, "Go ahead!" I, of course, oblige his request. I was disappointed in him, he is a high school baseball umpire and should know better.

[crazy voyager]

Originally posted by RookieDude

I've got one that is even "more terrible"...

any assigner that assigns two boys to a game where they are younger than the High School girl players...should have his/her head examined.

It's common, that's how severe the referee shortage is, I rarley call games where the players are younger then me.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Crazy Voyager,

Sounds like a horrible, horrible game. I had a game that was considerably less horrible when I was first starting out that almost convinced me to give up officiating. And I was 35! I'm impressed that you handled it so well, and lived to tell

Just a couple of thoughts, admitedly based on an NFHS perspective. The Blue coach seems to me to be your biggest problem. Was there an assistant that was any better? If so, I would have thought about unloading the blue coach. Her "Don't talk to me" comment would have been a good opportunity. Of course, that would only be effective if you're reasonably hopeful that the assistant would get things back under control.

But when the coach told her players to stop playing D, and especially when she instructed her player to pass the ball to the other team, I think it's time for the game to be over. The coach is making a travesty of the game. Nothing good can come from this point onward. I don't know if FIBA rules allow you to do this, but I think it's probably the best thing for everybody.

Just something to think about.

Hang in there, you're next game is guaranteed to be better

There wasn't any assistant there, and the coach were totaly unreacheble for my comments, in her mind she got to criticise us but we never even look at her.

And I was going forward to the board to abort the game, but there were only a few seconds left so I let them play that out, but I thought about calling it erly (there wasn't any scorebord either, the board had there own clock and then would-or rather should- call out 1 minute, 30 seconds and so on)

And I've got to know now that one of the players is getting reported to the police, and she's 16 so she's old enough to be punished in a court too...

[Time2Ref]

Crazy V,

Just a suggestion:

Consider making two reports. One for your personal records. (put everything that you remember in it. Don't let anyone else see it. Then settle down, relax (you have to be feeling all kinds of things after that mayhem. That was not your fault). Then, write the report that you will submit. Make sure it is short and sweet. Only the things that you saw, not what you felt.

At 14 years old, I assume you are a student. Ask your (what would you call it in your country? We call them English teachers) your teacher to look at your report and help you out to make it consise. It appears that the information you give will end up in a police report and you may even be asked to appear in a court case. At that time, the defense attorney will try to rip your report to shreds. That attorney will try to make it look like you are the criminal. (You are not. You are the referee) The less said, the less ammunition he/she will have.

In other words, make your report the same as when you referee. Only call the ones you see, and call them like you see them.

Remember, this is not your fault. You have no control over what these crazy fans/coaches/players do. (It's an old saying that my parents used to tell me: "Look at how hard it is to change yourself and you will relize what little chance you have of changing someone else")

And once again. Many people will try to tell you what to do. Consider their suggestions, then decide for yourself. Anybody can write anything. It is up to you if you believe what they write. (Including what I have just written).

Make the report, forget about it, and move on.

[crazy voyager]

Originally posted by Time2Ref
Crazy V,

Just a suggestion:

Consider making two reports. One for your personal records. (put everything that you remember in it. Don't let anyone else see it. Then settle down, relax (you have to be feeling all kinds of things after that mayhem. That was not your fault). Then, write the report that you will submit. Make sure it is short and sweet. Only the things that you saw, not what you felt.

At 14 years old, I assume you are a student. Ask your (what would you call it in your country? We call them English teachers) your teacher to look at your report and help you out to make it consise. It appears that the information you give will end up in a police report and you may even be asked to appear in a court case. At that time, the defense attorney will try to rip your report to shreds. That attorney will try to make it look like you are the criminal. (You are not. You are the referee) The less said, the less ammunition he/she will have.

In other words, make your report the same as when you referee. Only call the ones you see, and call them like you see them.

Remember, this is not your fault. You have no control over what these crazy fans/coaches/players do. (It's an old saying that my parents used to tell me: "Look at how hard it is to change yourself and you will relize what little chance you have of changing someone else")

And once again. Many people will try to tell you what to do. Consider their suggestions, then decide for yourself. Anybody can write anything. It is up to you if you believe what they write. (Including what I have just written).

Make the report, forget about it, and move on.

The fun thing is that is exactly what I did I started writing down evrything for my own record directly after the game, then I went to sleep and school, after that I went home, made the "real" report and had my parents read it (scince they had no idea about the details, if they understood it anybody would)
Now I'm working to forget it, it's in the hands of the diciplinary people on the association and the police, and I'm off for skiing in two days so I'm just looking forward to some time away now :d

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by crazy voyager

It's common, that's how severe the referee shortage is, I rarley call games where the players are younger then me.

There wasn't any assistant there, and the coach were totaly unreacheble for my comments, in her mind she got to criticise us but we never even look at her.

And I was going forward to the board to abort the game, but there were only a few seconds left so I let them play that out, but I thought about calling it erly (there wasn't any scorebord either, the board had there own clock and then would-or rather should- call out 1 minute, 30 seconds and so on)

And I've got to know now that one of the players is getting reported to the police, and she's 16 so she's old enough to be punished in a court too...

Forfeiting a game that has started is not something you will do very often. I've been part of two in my career, one was a church league tournament game, one was a men's rec league championship game during overtime. Both times were near the end of the game. Both times things had gotten to the point where it was just time for the game to be over. Don't let the time on the clock unduly influence you. But do realize that once the players, and coaches, have decided that they'd rather do other things than play the game by the rules, only bad things are likely to happen.

I wasn't there. I can't say whether or not you should have stopped the game. Just saying don't let the time on the clock influence your decision. A lot of bad can happen in just a few seconds.