Where does the next throw-in take place?

[TerpZebra]

This happened in a JUCO women's game, however I would like the ruling for both College and Federation. Please give any and all rule references.

Situation:

After a made basket and a timeout, there are 4.6 seconds remaining on the clock in OT. Team A is down by 1 point and has the ball for a running baseline throw-in.

A1 throws the ball across midcourt where it is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds.

Partner blows her whistle and immediately points the other direction.

I glance at the clock and see it is now at 4.0 seconds.

Two questions are:

1) Should we reset the clock to 4.6 seconds?
2) Where does team B's throw-in take place?

Thanks for any and all answers! I had two supervisors "discussing" the play when I told them about it.

What we ended up doing in the game:
1) reset the clock to 4.6
2) baseline spot throw-in for Team B

[Texas Aggie]

You got it right, I believe, for both codes.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by TerpZebra
This happened in a JUCO women's game, however I would like the ruling for both College and Federation. Please give any and all rule references.

Situation:

After a made basket and a timeout, there are 4.6 seconds remaining on the clock in OT. Team A is down by 1 point and has the ball for a running baseline throw-in.

A1 throws the ball across midcourt where it is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds.

Partner blows her whistle and immediately points the other direction.

I glance at the clock and see it is now at 4.0 seconds.

Two questions are:

1) Should we reset the clock to 4.6 seconds?
2) Where does team B's throw-in take place?

Thanks for any and all answers! I had two supervisors "discussing" the play when I told them about it.

What we ended up doing in the game:
1) reset the clock to 4.6
2) baseline spot throw-in for Team B

1. You had definite knowledge of the time, since the clock should never have started.

2. Unless you have a technical foul on the Team A player out-of-bounds, the throw-in was completed under 9-2-2 ("touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds)"), thus the throw-in is at midcourt.

I think.

[Edited by assignmentmaker on Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:56 PM]

[zebracz]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker


1. You had definite knowledge of the time, since the clock should never have started.

2. Unless you have a technical foul on the Team A player out-of-bounds, the throw-in was completed under 9-2-2 ("touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds)), thus the throw-in is at midcourt.

I think.

I agree w/ AM. I had this happen this year. Resuming play (throw-in) is where A2 was. As far as time, that's a tough one. I've not got my books w/, but reset to 4.6 works (in judgment) for me. the confusing part of rule 9-2-2 is that the "another player" is not a non-player of object, that's why the violation occurs when A2 is oob and touches live ball. good luck.

[Camron Rust]

To further add light to #2.

For the spot to be on the baseline, it would have to be a throwin violation. If that were the case (throwin caught OOB), any player from B could merely touch the ball OOB on the throwin (causing a throwin violation) and get the ball back. This is clearly not the intent of the rules.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
1. You had definite knowledge of the time, since the clock should never have started.

Correct. And before anybody says, "But you can't correct it if less than a second came off. . .", lag time only applies to errors in stopping the clock.

[Time2Ref]

TerpZebra,
To answer your original questions (using NFHS rules)
1) Should we reset the clock to 4.6 seconds?
2) Where does team B's throw-in take place?

1) Yes, reset clock to 4.6 seconds.
per NFHS Rule
2-5-5 (The referee shall...)
...Decide matters upon which the timer and scorer disagree and correct obvious timing errors.

2) Team B's throw-in takes place as designated-spot throw-in on end-line under B's basket.

per NFHS Rule(s):
9-2-10: No player shall be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.

9-2 Penalty: (Section 2): The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponets for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.

(Cameron Rust,
Don't be confused. The wording is in 9-2 Penalty. "Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the OPPONETS".....
(opponets of the violator. You can't commit a violation and get the ball back.)

Time2Ref

[Edited by Time2Ref on Feb 7th, 2006 at 01:28 PM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Time2Ref
TerpZebra,
To answer your original questions (using NFHS rules)
1) Should we reset the clock to 4.6 seconds?
2) Where does team B's throw-in take place?

1) Yes, reset clock to 4.6 seconds.
per NFHS Rule
2-5-5 (The referee shall...)
...Decide matters upon which the timer and scorer disagree and correct obvious timing errors.

2) Team B's throw-in takes place as designated-spot throw-in on end-line under B's basket.

per NFHS Rule(s):
9-2-10: No player shall be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.

9-2 Penalty: (Section 2): The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponets for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.

(Cameron Rust,
Don't be confused. The wording is in 9-2 Penalty. "Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the OPPONETS".....
(opponets of the violator. You can't commit a violation and get the ball back.)

Time2Ref

[Edited by Time2Ref on Feb 7th, 2006 at 01:28 PM]

The 'violation' is not a throw-in violation, and thus does not go back to the throw-in spot.

[LarryS]

I agree that you reset the clock to 4.6. However, I thought the only time you went back to the original spot was when the ball went out of bounds BEFORE it was touched. In this case, it was out of bounds BECAUSE it was touched.

I'm confused.

[ChuckElias]

Larry, don't be confused. You are correct in this case. Time2Ref is not correct. The violation is for touching the ball while OOB. Where did this violation occur? It occured at the spot where it was touched.

This is NOT a throw-in violation. Therefore, the throw-in is from the spot where it was touched by the OOB player.

[Time2Ref]

It is not a surprise if I am wrong.

I am only here to learn. I did not mean to appear to be an authority. Only to show what rules I used to come to my conclusion.

I think my mistake was to believe that 9-2-10 was violated by the throw-in team.

As I have seen in past posts "Don't make it too complicated". It looks like I also made that mistake.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[wwcfoa43]

I agree with Time2Ref's original thought. The verbiage of 9-2-10 is that it would apply equally to Team B. And there is nothing to indicate that 9-3 (OOB) should take precedence over 9-2-10 for Team B but not for Team A.

So I believe there is more rule support for the throw-in on the end line.

[Adam]

Originally posted by wwcfoa43
I agree with Time2Ref's original thought. The verbiage of 9-2-10 is that it would apply equally to Team B. And there is nothing to indicate that 9-3 (OOB) should take precedence over 9-2-10 for Team B but not for Team A.

So I believe there is more rule support for the throw-in on the end line.

Read the violation rules again and you'll see that in this case the violation is not committed by the thrower, but by the receiver.
It is a violation for the thrower to the throw the ball so that it touches OOB before touching a player. When a player touches the ball while standing out of bounds, that player has committed the violation. The thrower is off the hook here, and his teammate has committed the violation.

Think about it this way. Which player gets hit with the turnover on the stat sheet? In this case, the ball will be given to the opposing team at the spot where the guilty player was standing.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Time2Ref
It is not a surprise if I am wrong.

I am only here to learn. I did not mean to appear to be an authority.

Time2, I did not mean to shout you down. I was only trying to be as explicit as possible for Larry. I wanted to point out exactly which posts I was talking about.

Please don't think that I was trying to denigrate you. You were wrong. Oh well. I think I've been wrong a few times myselv.

[Time2Ref]

Thanks.

The most important thing is that we arrive at the truth as per the rules. Plus, if I don't learn to accept criticism, I'll never be a good ref. No matter how well I learn the rules.

I expect this to be a lifelong journey and I have just begun. No doubt I will be wrong again.

When I am wrong, please don't hesitate to correct my error. In that way, I can learn.

Thanks again.