great site! some more observations

[remofire]

This site has been a real eye opener for me. You guys definitly have your hands full. I have always been one of the fans the other fans get mad at from time to time, because I have told our people when they were complaining about calls, that the ref had a better angle than we did. And there have been several incidents in which I appeared to be about the only one that thought the ref made the correct call.
Whith that in mind, I thought I would throw out a few of my own misunderstood calls or interpretations.

1. When a defender is standing still with arms straight up in the air. The offensive players jumps into his arms and the defender is whistled for the foul. I always thought to myself that if you could not stick your arms straight up, then how can you play D at all?

2. Two players, one from each team are running across court from opposite directions after a loose ball. They both collide with each other at the time they reach the ball and one is whistled for a foul. To my non officiating mind, neither player should get a foul. They are both trying for the same thing. However, i am guessing that there is some explainable area in here about who had the ball last, first, or something to that nature.

3. One of my biggest questions. And one of the few in which I really had personal conviction that the ref just could not be right. Our defender sets up to take a charge. I am setting right behind the bench so I have a great view of the play. Defender becomes stationary, player with ball takes 2 steps and collision occurs. BLOCKING! Say what?! Coach goes ballistic and the ref tells the coach that the defender flenched before she was it and thus was not set or motionless. Is a simple flinch of the neck or shoulders anticipating the imminent impact enough to call a block? The ref told coach and actually used his body to show the coach what the girl did. It was basically just that she stiffined up, no foot movement.

Anyway, like I said, I am just a fan. I grew up around basketball and know the game fairly well, but obviously I do not know all the technical aspects of officiating. I have done umpiring before and I know that you guys cant win, regardless of what you do. I see the refs do alot more right than most of the people around me do!

Thanks everyone!

By the way, I read the thread on here about the fan saying" C'mon Ref! " There was a guy in the stands yelling that last night and I asked my wife, " I wonder where he is wanting to take him?" LOL

[Edited by remofire on Jan 28th, 2006 at 11:18 AM]

[ThickSkin]

Remo,

I would say that these situations you have just described would require me or any other responder to be present. Personally, when I am officiating the main thing I am concerned with is advantage/disadvantage. Or did player A gain an advantage over player B.

I can tell you that many times I have been underneath the bucket (or the lead official) and had Player B with his/her hands straight in the air. What the fans don't see and sometimes understand is that Player B has walked or moved into the shooter while the shooter was in the air. One of the things that gets preached to us each and every year is "Protect the airborne shooter!" If the shooter (player A) is in the air, Player B MUST allow him/her to come down. Many times the kids will walk into or bump the shooter with their hips or body. If this happens a foul has occured.

Next time this happens, pay attention to the way the official reports the foul. Does he/she put both hands on his/her hips thus signaling body contact? There is a key to everything. Believe it or not (and it sounds like you do believe it) there is a rhyme and reason to the things we do on the court.

Other than this, I would have to actually see the plays. Keep in mind "advantage/disadvantage" and maybe some of these calls will become a little more clearer for you. Just my opinion.

[Texas Aggie]

What you described, in theory based upon your descriptions, are probably missed calls. However, there are some caveats involved that a lot of people don't realize or can't see. Remember, officials are on the floor in the position they are in for a reason. To put it another way, there's a good reason why officials are not in the stands.

1. Chances are that when the play you described is a foul called on the defender the arms weren't actually "straight" up in the air. I don't know how many times the coach or player says, after I called a foul on them, "my/his arms were straight up." No, they weren't straight up; rather, they were closer to a 45 degree angle. Or, the arms were straight up at one time, but during the shot, they moved out of their plane and contacted the shooter's hand or arm. Or, as some are coached, the arms go straight up immediately after the whistle is blown, but weren't straight before.

2. Again, in theory, two players going for the ball colliding should be ruled incidental contact. But if one is using the contact to his advantage, its a foul. One might push off with an arm or something similar. Keep in mind that once a foul occurs in this situation, the ball becomes dead and subsequent contact is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. Often, there are situations like this where a foul occured prior to the big collision, and the official is calling the prior contact. However, everything happened so fast that by the time the whistle was blown, the collision had already happened. Fans think it was the collision that brought the foul, when it wasn't Believe me, 95% of the time, fans don't even know what's being called and there isn't a reporting mechanism, other than signals, to let them know. We can't stop and explain everything.

3. A "flinching" or one protecting himself from contact should not, in theory, cause a foul. However, what often happens is that the defender moves forward into the path of the offensive player even though, from a distance, it looks like he was stationary. Also, there could be a situation where the hands of the defender caused the contact in front of him, and the use of his hands in such a manner is not automatically protected. I can't explain the explanation you overheard. Perhaps it was an incorrect interpretation. But another possible reason is the official had something legitimate but didn't explain it correctly. Sometimes when you have to report a foul, are thinking about how play will resume, how to communicate everything properly, etc., AND have a coach screaming at you, it can disrupt even the most experienced official and words may come out wrong.

[johnfox]

best ref site anywhere!

[johnfox]

i just had a gv game where 2 players( 1 from each team) went flying for a loose ball. the collision was violent. i had a no-call. caught heck from the crowd, but was right.
on your charge call, if it happened the way you said, it should have been a charge.
i know what constitutes a charge, but if i feel that if the player in control of the ball could have avoided the contact, and they plow over them anyway, it's a charge.

[remofire]

Does the offensive player HAVE to be able to avoid the defender in order to get a charging call?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by remofire
Does the offensive player HAVE to be able to avoid the defender in order to get a charging call?

I don't really understand your question, if a defensive player is standing still and an offensive player runs towards him, he has no way to avoid it right before contact occurs and it will be a charge call.

[zebraman]

remofire,

Without being there, I can't tell you if you are seeing missed calls or if the refs are seeing something that you aren't. However, I'll tell you some things I've seen many times about each play you mention.

1) Often times, the defender is standing with arms straight. Then the offensive player goes to shoot and the defender moves the arms to 45 degrees and whacks the shooter across the arm. Then the defender moves the arms to straight up again and gives you that "who me?" look. I see this more in girls basketball.

2) Sometimes in a loose ball, one of the players will do something to gain an advantage. It might be a push or even pulling on the opponent's arm to get there first. The fans are generally watching the ball and not the players. Officials are watching the players.

3) I will admit that I see a lot of plays called as blocks that should be a player control foul. When the offensive player is a dribbler and the defensive player had obtained legal guarding position, there is no "being set" requirement. Too many offensive players are being allowed to initiate contact and get a block called on the defensive player. Once a shooter goes airborne however, the defender cannot move into their path. Sometimes those defensive movements are easy to see when they are 6-feet in front of us but probably not easy to see from the stands.

Z

[Texas Aggie]

>>went flying for a loose ball. the collision was violent. i had a no-call. caught heck from the crowd<<

As one official I worked with my first year succinctly put it, "who are you going to call the foul on and why them and not the other?"

In the old fed books there use to be a discussion about rule concepts after the written rules. One such in particular stated something along the lines of "the contact could be harsh or even violent and still not be a foul." Later they implemented some of those statements into the specific rules.

Is that stated anywhere in newer fed books? I haven't seen it but maybe I missed it.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
>>went flying for a loose ball. the collision was violent. i had a no-call. caught heck from the crowd<<

As one official I worked with my first year succinctly put it, "who are you going to call the foul on and why them and not the other?"

In the old fed books there use to be a discussion about rule concepts after the written rules. One such in particular stated something along the lines of "the contact could be harsh or even violent and still not be a foul." Later they implemented some of those statements into the specific rules.

Is that stated anywhere in newer fed books? I haven't seen it but maybe I missed it.

4-27-2 "ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

[remofire]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

I don't really understand your question, if a defensive player is standing still and an offensive player runs towards him, he has no way to avoid it right before contact occurs and it will be a charge call.

Can a player be too close as to cause an official to say that the offensive player could not avoid the collision, therefore whether the defender is stationary or not, it is blocking.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by remofire

Can a player be too close as to cause an official to say that the offensive player could not avoid the collision, therefore whether the defender is stationary or not, it is blocking.

The dribbler must stop or change direction to avoid contact if the defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position. It would be a block if the dribbler got head and shoulders by the defense and the defender is moving when contact occurs. Like when a player is dribbling down the sideline and gets his head/shoudlers by the dribbler, it would then be a block.

But if the player becomes an airborne shooter the defender must be in his spot before the dribbler becomes airborne.

I think that's pretty much the basic idea, its complicated and I'm sure someone around here will give some more info.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by remofire
Can a player be too close as to cause an official to say that the offensive player could not avoid the collision, therefore whether the defender is stationary or not, it is blocking.

An airborne player must be given an opportunity to land.

A player with the ball need no be given any room.

A moving player without the ball must be given room, but that room need not be more than two strides.

A stationary player without the ball need not be given any room.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
It would be a block if the dribbler got head and shoulders by the defense and the defender is moving when contact occurs. Like when a player is dribbling down the sideline and gets his head/shoudlers by the dribbler, it would then be a block.

Careful about being to general on this one lest someone actually believes it is as you wrote this.

It is NOT necessarily a block in the above cases. The "primary" responsibility lies with the defender but not the sole responsibility.

Example, A1 going down the sideline and gets head/shoulders by B1. B1 is moving directly away from A1. A1 changes directions, moving sidesways such that the middle of his torso contacts B1. This is not a foul on B1.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Careful about being to general on this one lest someone actually believes it is as you wrote this.

It is NOT necessarily a block in the above cases. The "primary" responsibility lies with the defender but not the sole responsibility.

Example, A1 going down the sideline and gets head/shoulders by B1. B1 is moving directly away from A1. A1 changes directions, moving sidesways such that the middle of his torso contacts B1. This is not a foul on B1.

You are correct, I just attmepted to summarize it as best as possible.