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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 02:54pm
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Have I ever heard of advantage/disadvantage? No, that wasn't patronizing. Of course I have. That's the whole point.

Look, someone mentioned several posts back that this this may be one of those plays where it's just not fair to make a judgment without seeing/hearing the timing of the whistle-throwdown. I'll concede that I should have recognized that and kept my fingers taped. Regardless of the actual timing in the play in question, let me simply state that I can certainly envision timing scenarios where, in a middle school game, a technical foul would not be inappropriate here. That being the case, it's also definitionally true that there are also timing instances in which I wouldn't agree.

Now everybody but me can live with my position.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbduke
Have I ever heard of advantage/disadvantage? No, that wasn't patronizing. Of course I have. That's the whole point.
Take it as patronizing if you like, that wasn't the intent. The intent was simply to point out that there's no advantage/disadvantage in the play where the bigger player is involved in a collision. It has nothing to do with penalizing a player because he/she is bigger/smaller. That's the point.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
NFHS Rule 4-25: "A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness".

Did A1 gain control by forcefully pulling the ball away? Did A1, by forcefully pulling the ball away to gain control, also send B1 to the floor? That's exactly what the first post in this thread said.

Imo, the act met the definition above. It especially met the definition in middle-school ball. ]
I agree. It's a held ball.

Where did it meet the definition of a technical foul?

I'm betting that if you were on the floor, you wouldn't throw a T. But, you've painted yourself into a corner, as many of us so often do.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:45pm
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I had an assignor that is a very good official and runs a great conference tell me that there are no jump balls in girls basketball. Obviously he was generalizing, but the reasoning is that if there is any possibility of a foul, call it just to keep them from being all over each other. You can apply the same to lower level games.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
Quote:
Originally posted by ehcco
Wow, I didn't mean to start a fight but thanks for the opinions.

Just for clarification, A1 did not cause the player to fall by ripping the ball out after the whistle. I also don't think A1 had any intentions to hurt B1, she simply was doing what all kids are taught during a held ball and that is to aggressively get the ball.

My feeling is the call was changed because B1 came up crying not because a foul was committed. I think the refs felt a foul call would make the situation better. The coach for player B1 was not asking for a foul.

I wasn't sure if the player falling to the floor because of the action of ripping the ball out could somehow be interpreted as a foul even though no actual contact occurred. I did not consider the unsporting technical so I looked again at 4-19-14. The "unfair" word/part of the definition is the only one that may apply but being bigger and stronger and using one's strength is not acting in an unfair manner.

To me it was a situation in which players get hurt playing the game.
In this situation your are merely complicating the play by even considering the unsporting T. If there was no contact and you feel as though there was no malicious intent then it easy, IT'S A JUMP BALL. By calling a foul in this situation you are sending the players mixed signals. You are telling them it's okay to try to pull the ball away, but it the defender falls and crys then the foul will be called.
Can we get something straight here? THIS IS NOT A JUMP BALL. It's a HELD ball.

A JUMP ball is a method of putting the ball in play by tossing it to start the game or an OT.

A HELD ball occurs when two opponents both have their hands on the ball, such that neither one can gain control without undue roughness.


Now, with that definition in mind, all I have is a HELD ball. Let's suppose the whistle was blown one second later, or had not blown at all, and the exact same play occurred. Are we going to call a technical foul? I'm not, and I hope no one else here would either. The split second timing of this play does not call for a T.

Now, if the HELD ball was whistled, both players had an opportunity to hear it, perhaps B1 loosened her grasp adn then suddenly, A1 tears the ball away, there may be justification for a T.

But splitting hairs on a whistle that sounds a second or less before the rip away - A T is over officious IMHO.

Well said. Thank you, Tony.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by jbduke
Have I ever heard of advantage/disadvantage? No, that wasn't patronizing. Of course I have. That's the whole point.
Take it as patronizing if you like, that wasn't the intent. The intent was simply to point out that there's no advantage/disadvantage in the play where the bigger player is involved in a collision. It has nothing to do with penalizing a player because he/she is bigger/smaller. That's the point.
Tony,

I think we're in violent agreement here. I posted my scenarios in response to the questions both expressed and implied of, "Aren't we penalizing someone for being stronger/bigger?" I hoped my example would illustrate that this is the wrong question, and that the question(s) should be more along the lines of advantage/disadvantage.

Again for the sake of argument, if the whistle blows for a held ball, then, after a reasonable amount of time has passed, one player, in trying to gain sole possession of the basketball, throws another to the ground, then at the middle school level, I'm with JR. And one of the reasons I am goes to the heart of the scenario I gave earlier; i.e. if you're talking about a small/weak girl, she's not going to be capable of generating the kind of force necessary to throw someone else to the ground, whereas a bigger/stronger girl will.

FWIW, my intent is not to debate whether the original poster's play included a 'reasonable amount of time,' or what exactly constitutes said amount.
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