Held Ball/Foul

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

A1 used enough force to put B1 on the floor, and also out of the game. And this happened in a kid's game too. If you feel that is appropriate behavior, so be it. I don't. Jmo, but I think that if you lets acts like that go, you are going to have some real big-time game management issues someday- even under FIBA rules.

Too many times in this forum I see us being too quick to judge a situation when we weren't there to see it. In this case the force was applied, "Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball." According to the poster who was there it was so close to the whistle that it is a legitimate question as to if it should be ignored. And, having worked with junior high kids, I know that they can be clumsy, not able to react right away and in most instances not mean-spirited. Bottom line: I wasn't there.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by IREFU2
I think I feel a shut up comming!

Well, not from me....

I might not agree with someone's else's opinion, but they sureashell certainly have the right to have their own opinion.

And I'll defend that right to their death!

[ehcco]

Wow, I didn't mean to start a fight but thanks for the opinions.

Just for clarification, A1 did not cause the player to fall by ripping the ball out after the whistle. I also don't think A1 had any intentions to hurt B1, she simply was doing what all kids are taught during a held ball and that is to aggressively get the ball.

My feeling is the call was changed because B1 came up crying not because a foul was committed. I think the refs felt a foul call would make the situation better. The coach for player B1 was not asking for a foul.

I wasn't sure if the player falling to the floor because of the action of ripping the ball out could somehow be interpreted as a foul even though no actual contact occurred. I did not consider the unsporting technical so I looked again at 4-19-14. The "unfair" word/part of the definition is the only one that may apply but being bigger and stronger and using one's strength is not acting in an unfair manner.

To me it was a situation in which players get hurt playing the game.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by ehcco
Wow, I didn't mean to start a fight but thanks for the opinions.

Just for clarification, A1 did not cause the player to fall by ripping the ball out after the whistle. I also don't think A1 had any intentions to hurt B1, she simply was doing what all kids are taught during a held ball and that is to aggressively get the ball.

My feeling is the call was changed because B1 came up crying not because a foul was committed. I think the refs felt a foul call would make the situation better. The coach for player B1 was not asking for a foul.

I wasn't sure if the player falling to the floor because of the action of ripping the ball out could somehow be interpreted as a foul even though no actual contact occurred. I did not consider the unsporting technical so I looked again at 4-19-14. The "unfair" word/part of the definition is the only one that may apply but being bigger and stronger and using one's strength is not acting in an unfair manner.

To me it was a situation in which players get hurt playing the game.

In this situation your are merely complicating the play by even considering the unsporting T. If there was no contact and you feel as though there was no malicious intent then it easy, IT'S A JUMP BALL. By calling a foul in this situation you are sending the players mixed signals. You are telling them it's okay to try to pull the ball away, but it the defender falls and crys then the foul will be called.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I posted my opinion. It's a middle school youth game. The action put a player on the floor and also out of the game. If you disagree that the act was unsporting, so be it. That's your opinion.

JR...I'm getting in late on this one.

But, I'm with you. If we are going to error...I'm going to error on the side of protecting middle school players.
Evidently, the other official, in this game, saw it the same as JR and I.

Middle school players need to STOP on the whistle...the extra-curricular activity that follows these situations is what gets players hurt. The foul call by the official... that was actually there and saw the play...reinforces the idea of stopping play, or being ready to stop play, on the whistle. Just my opinion.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by RookieDude

JR...I'm getting in late on this one.

But, I'm with you. If we are going to error...I'm going to error on the side of protecting middle school players.
Evidently, the other official, in this game, saw it the same as JR and I.

Middle school players need to STOP on the whistle...the extra-curricular activity that follows these situations is what gets players hurt. The foul call by the official... that was actually there and saw the play...reinforces the idea of stopping play, or being ready to stop play, on the whistle. Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion whole heartedly. But the fact is the whistle hadnt blown to STOP play. This happened before the whistle was blown. So you can blame the official for not having a quicker whistle to stop play or you can understand that sometimes things like this happen. What you cant do is punish the player for being aggressive.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

In this situation your are merely complicating the play by even considering the unsporting T. If there was no contact and you feel as though there was no malicious intent then it easy, IT'S A JUMP BALL. By calling a foul in this situation you are sending the players mixed signals. You are telling them it's okay to try to pull the ball away, but it the defender falls and crys then the foul will be called.

Can we get something straight here? THIS IS NOT A JUMP BALL. It's a HELD ball.

A JUMP ball is a method of putting the ball in play by tossing it to start the game or an OT.

A HELD ball occurs when two opponents both have their hands on the ball, such that neither one can gain control without undue roughness.


Now, with that definition in mind, all I have is a HELD ball. Let's suppose the whistle was blown one second later, or had not blown at all, and the exact same play occurred. Are we going to call a technical foul? I'm not, and I hope no one else here would either. The split second timing of this play does not call for a T.

Now, if the HELD ball was whistled, both players had an opportunity to hear it, perhaps B1 loosened her grasp adn then suddenly, A1 tears the ball away, there may be justification for a T.

But splitting hairs on a whistle that sounds a second or less before the rip away - A T is over officious IMHO.

[Junker]

I agree that its a held ball, I don't see a foul here. If it is WELL after the whistle, they you might have an unsporting or flagrant foul. In similar situations I'll speak to the player about calming down and stopping when you hear they whistle.

[jbduke]

Okay, I've had to do some calisthenics to clear my head to make sure I'm alright. Here goes. I agree with JR.

We make decisions all the time that could be framed as "penalizing someone for their size," one way or another.

a 5'9" point guard goes plowing into the lane, and knows that he is going to have contact with the huge center. The PG blows in, jumps hard, absorbs the contact from the center, who barely budges, bounces off of it and converts the lay-up. Play on, no questions from anybody.

Same scenario, except instead of the big center, it's another guard. This guard gets absolutely mowed down. Player control, no questions from anybody.

Did we penalize the center in the first play for being big, since we didn't call the PC? Or did we penalize the point guard in the second play because he chose to crash into a small guy rather than a big one? The answer is neither. We refereed the plays.

People have to account for their own size and strength when they make decisions on the basketball court. What is being ignored here is the middle ground between the amount of force necessary to prise the ball away from an opponent, and the amount that results in the opponent being thrown to the ground? "But how can we expect...?"
Life's tough sometimes (Gosh, I never thought I'd be ending a post like that).

[Junker]

jbduke,
I'm not saying that the situations you described don't happen or that I've never done it (I'm sure I probably have), but if we're doing a good job of refereeing the defense, the players size isn't going to make a difference as to whether contact is PC or not. It will depend upon the defensive position.

[Camron Rust]

Might as well jump in here...

No T. The player pull on a live ball....just as the whistle blew. They have every right to yank the ball until the whistle and should have a moment to react when they hear the whistle. It doesn't matter which level it is...a player shouldn't have to anticipate a whistle that may never come.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Can we get something straight here? THIS IS NOT A JUMP BALL. It's a HELD ball.

A JUMP ball is a method of putting the ball in play by tossing it to start the game or an OT.

A HELD ball occurs when two opponents both have their hands on the ball, such that neither one can gain control without undue roughness.


Now, with that definition in mind, all I have is a HELD ball. Let's suppose the whistle was blown one second later, or had not blown at all, and the exact same play occurred. Are we going to call a technical foul? I'm not, and I hope no one else here would either. The split second timing of this play does not call for a T.

Now, if the HELD ball was whistled, both players had an opportunity to hear it, perhaps B1 loosened her grasp adn then suddenly, A1 tears the ball away, there may be justification for a T.

But splitting hairs on a whistle that sounds a second or less before the rip away - A T is over officious IMHO.

BB ,

Agreed! One of my pet peeves is that it is still called a jump ball. How many years since we eliminated the plethora of jump balls, 20? And...."held" is an appropriate term to illustrate that the ball is held and that excessive force is then required to free it by either player.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by jbduke
Okay, I've had to do some calisthenics to clear my head to make sure I'm alright. Here goes. I agree with JR.

We make decisions all the time that could be framed as "penalizing someone for their size," one way or another.

a 5'9" point guard goes plowing into the lane, and knows that he is going to have contact with the huge center. The PG blows in, jumps hard, absorbs the contact from the center, who barely budges, bounces off of it and converts the lay-up. Play on, no questions from anybody.

Same scenario, except instead of the big center, it's another guard. This guard gets absolutely mowed down. Player control, no questions from anybody.

Did we penalize the center in the first play for being big, since we didn't call the PC? Or did we penalize the point guard in the second play because he chose to crash into a small guy rather than a big one? The answer is neither. We refereed the plays.

Ever heard of the term advantage/disadvantage?



My question still stands. If this happened and the whistle had not blown, would you still have a T?

What if the player had not fallen?

The player did nothing wrong, as long as this was a simple continuation of a play that started before the whistle blew. It's an overreaction and it's over officious.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by jbduke
Okay, I've had to do some calisthenics to clear my head to make sure I'm alright. Here goes. I agree with JR.

We make decisions all the time that could be framed as "penalizing someone for their size," one way or another.

a 5'9" point guard goes plowing into the lane, and knows that he is going to have contact with the huge center. The PG blows in, jumps hard, absorbs the contact from the center, who barely budges, bounces off of it and converts the lay-up. Play on, no questions from anybody.

Same scenario, except instead of the big center, it's another guard. This guard gets absolutely mowed down. Player control, no questions from anybody.

Did we penalize the center in the first play for being big, since we didn't call the PC? Or did we penalize the point guard in the second play because he chose to crash into a small guy rather than a big one? The answer is neither. We refereed the plays.

People have to account for their own size and strength when they make decisions on the basketball court. What is being ignored here is the middle ground between the amount of force necessary to prise the ball away from an opponent, and the amount that results in the opponent being thrown to the ground? "But how can we expect...?"
Life's tough sometimes (Gosh, I never thought I'd be ending a post like that).

The difference between the situation you described and the one in question by the original poster is this: In your example there is an obvious PC foul or blocking foul. Someone in your example had to commit an illegal action. In the original post, there is no contact/no illegal action. It's a HELD (thanks for the correction BB,cant believe I typed that) ball. Both players have a right to that ball until the whistle is blowed.

[Jurassic Referee]

NFHS Rule 4-25: "A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness".

Did A1 gain control by forcefully pulling the ball away? Did A1, by forcefully pulling the ball away to gain control, also send B1 to the floor? That's exactly what the first post in this thread said.

Imo, the act met the definition above. It especially met the definition in middle-school ball.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 10th, 2006 at 02:55 PM]