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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 02:26pm
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Hello all,
Happy Holidays.
I’m working a holiday tournament this week. Last night I did my games and was about to leave when I stopped to watch an 7th/8th grade game. When all of a sudden all hell broke out. Here is how it unfolded. The point guard for team A is very talented. He could do what ever he wanted on the floor. His counterpart on team B could not guard him and was getting abused. Fourth quarter the game is going back and forth. Team A ,who was down most of the game, but with five minuets left in the game had come back the take a 2 point lead. All behind the play of Team A’s do it all point guard. He had just scored five back to back baskets ( on jump shots, drives to the basket, you name it ) all at the expense of Team B’s point guard. Team B’s point guard is getting an ear full from his coach and his Dad. Ok, under five minuets Team A point guard on a fast break clearly going in for a easy basket. When Team B point grabs him and takes him down. The Official signals an intentional foul. As Team B point is getting off of Team A point. Team A point gives him a little push. Then Team B point goes nuts and jumps all over Team A point. The Officials move in quickly and break it up. As they try to sort out the penalties. The coach from Team A is across the court in the face of the father of Team B point, and they start shoving each other. Then the mothers get in to it. Everyone is yelling and pushing. The police are called and the coach the dad the mom’s are all escorted out. Then I see team A point walking out with his bag I ask him why he was leaving he said “ My coach is my me Dad so I have to go too”. I have never seen such madness at any level of basketball. That messed up a great game.
By the way Team A lost.
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Origianlly posted by Ref-X
By the way Team A lost.
Everybody lost....sad.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 02:51pm
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Amazing. couple shared observations

Finding a "man among boys" is more and more frequent in lower levels. One of the hardest challenges to be fair to unequaled talents. Coaching a kid thats still developing skills to manage a player 18 inch's taller and 2 years more mature is impossible.

The presure on these Kids gets out of control. Its a game and every night SOMEBODY looses.

Hindsite; Was a preventative officiating step missed? Sounds like (from the stands anyway) you could see this coming.

Seen and experienced hostile Father / Son tandem's before. Its a challenge. Haven't seen a Mother / daughter one yet.

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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
Quote:
Origianlly posted by Ref-X
By the way Team A lost.
Everybody lost....sad.
Very True
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref Daddy

Amazing. couple shared observations

Finding a "man among boys" is more and more frequent in lower levels. One of the hardest challenges to be fair to unequaled talents. Coaching a kid thats still developing skills to manage a player 18 inch's taller and 2 years more mature is impossible.

The presure on these Kids gets out of control. Its a game and every night SOMEBODY looses.

Hindsite; Was a preventative officiating step missed? Sounds like (from the stands anyway) you could see this coming.

Seen and experienced hostile Father / Son tandem's before. Its a challenge. Haven't seen a Mother / daughter one yet.

.
I hindsite yes you could see the frustration on the one kid building. I never would have guessed the coach and parents would get in to it. As an Official we hear coaches and parents yelling at the kids all the time. I am glad I was not working that game. At the same time I think how would I have handled that differently.
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 03:11pm
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I agree I'm glad i didnt work that game but i think part of this should fall on the officials if they let it get to that point. Just because one kid is getting beat on the court doesnt to me = a big fight, it seems like something bigger happened
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
I agree I'm glad i didnt work that game but i think part of this should fall on the officials if they let it get to that point. Just because one kid is getting beat on the court doesnt to me = a big fight, it seems like something bigger happened
Let's review what was posted:

12 or 13 year olds.

A1 clearly better than B1. B1 has to listen to his coach & his dad getting on him about A1's ability. B1 has enough, intentionally fouls A1 on a layup. Officials call the intentional.

What would have you done to prevent the sh1tstorm that followed? What "something bigger" do you see happening here?
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
I agree I'm glad i didnt work that game but i think part of this should fall on the officials if they let it get to that point. Just because one kid is getting beat on the court doesnt to me = a big fight, it seems like something bigger happened
I did not see anyhting that could have started that.
Unless something happened before I started watching. I think the kid got frustrated. And then you have your coach and dad yelling at you in front of everyone. I think the kid snapped. But the actions of the Adults can't be blamed on the Officials.
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 04:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
I agree I'm glad i didnt work that game but i think part of this should fall on the officials if they let it get to that point. Just because one kid is getting beat on the court doesnt to me = a big fight, it seems like something bigger happened
Let's review what was posted:

12 or 13 year olds.

A1 clearly better than B1. B1 has to listen to his coach & his dad getting on him about A1's ability. B1 has enough, intentionally fouls A1 on a layup. Officials call the intentional.

What would have you done to prevent the sh1tstorm that followed? What "something bigger" do you see happening here?
From what was described and even his most recent post, I don't see where the officials are responsible for this mess. Sometimes parents, especially those that coach do not know how to motivate their kids without demoralizing them. Maybe his actions is where we should look if we want to throw blame somewhere.
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 05:49pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
I agree I'm glad i didnt work that game but i think part of this should fall on the officials if they let it get to that point. Just because one kid is getting beat on the court doesnt to me = a big fight, it seems like something bigger happened
Why does it seem so? Not every game that falls apart is the fault of the officials. Sometime, it explodes in your face before there is any clue that its coming. The only thing going on was player B1 getting repeatedly beat by A1. The game was close...A1 was just playing ball, not rubbing it in. Neither team has reason to be frustrated. B1 just lost it.

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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 06:00pm
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I may be wrong, but it still seems to me like their was something else besides this push and the one kid being better then the other that made the fight break out. I'm with you guys tho that its not always the refs fault. I guess what I'm asking is what would you have done if you were those refs, and does anyone think that they as a ref could have prevented this?????
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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 06:49pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
I may be wrong, but it still seems to me like their was something else besides this push and the one kid being better then the other that made the fight break out. I'm with you guys tho that its not always the refs fault. I guess what I'm asking is what would you have done if you were those refs, and does anyone think that they as a ref could have prevented this?????
Since we weren't there, all we can go by is the information provided, and from Ref-X's original and follow up posts, it doesn't appear that there was any identifiable precursor to what happened.

B1 simply lost it, committed the intentional foul & was correctly penalized by the officials. The only additional thing they could have done was to toss both A1 & B1 for their subsequent conduct, but that's a judgement call on their part as to whether the conduct was flagrant.

The reactions by the adults were way out of line, but I don't see what the officials could have done to prevent them.

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Old Tue Dec 27, 2005, 09:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
I may be wrong, but it still seems to me like their was something else besides this push and the one kid being better then the other that made the fight break out. I'm with you guys tho that its not always the refs fault. I guess what I'm asking is what would you have done if you were those refs, and does anyone think that they as a ref could have prevented this?????
Maybe you just have to ref more games. A fight could have happened with a lot less than this. A fight could have broken out if the foul wasn't intentional, but hard. A foul could have started because of a lot of things. It seems like you are trying to put the blame on the officials. I could understand if the OP had sad there was a lot of rough play or something like that.

Is there a reason why you are trying to pin the blame on the officials?
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Old Wed Dec 28, 2005, 12:43am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref-X
Fourth quarter the game is going back and forth. Team A ,who was down most of the game, but with five minuets left in the game had come back the take a 2 point lead. All behind the play of Team A’s do it all point guard. He had just scored five back to back baskets ( on jump shots, drives to the basket, you name it ) all at the expense of Team B’s point guard. Team B’s point guard is getting an ear full from his coach and his Dad. Ok, under five minuets Team A point guard on a fast break ....
I think even one minuet could be construed as taunting.

(Sorry. That's a really bad joke, but I couldn't resist.)
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Old Wed Dec 28, 2005, 06:59am
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we need the whackinator!

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref-X
The Official signals an intentional foul. As Team B point is getting off of Team A point. Team A point gives him a little push. Then Team B point goes nuts and jumps all over Team A point.
Technical foul on A1, which becomes fighting and is flagrant, when B1 retaliates by fighting. (4-18-2) A1 and B1 are both DQ'd.


Quote:
Originally posted by Ref-X
The coach from Team A is across the court in the face of the father of Team B point, and they start shoving each other.
Both are leaving the gym. The coach of team A is charged with a flagrant T. If the dad is a coach or bench personnel of team B then charge him with one too.


Quote:
Originally posted by Ref-X
Then the mothers get in to it. Everyone is yelling and pushing. The police are called and the coach the dad the mom’s are all escorted out.
Good job. Send them all to the parking lot. We may or may not finish the game in my state. It would depend upon how many people left the team bench.


BTW, can't you just feel the holiday spirit? Isn't it wonderful?
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