Score the basket or on the floor?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

This is what I mean by the upward shooting motion. If this kid in HS gets fouled after he has gathered the ball and is still on his right foot then proceeds to step with the left and finish the hoop, I believe by high school rule you cannot award this basket.

You believe wrong under both high school and NCAA rules.

Bob Jenkins gave the simplest and best answer above as to how the play is supposed to be called under NFHS and NCAA rules. He said "Gathering the ball in both hands is the start of the habitual throwing motion". That's what you look for, that's the way it's supposed to be called (even in the ...wait for it...SEC ), and that's the way that this play has been taught since I've been around.

Forget about "steps" by the shooter unless he travels. Look for the shooter grabbing the ball with both hands. That starts a "try" under all rulesets.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN
So what if I determine that the foot and arm movements of a crossover dribble are in fact the movements that lead to a shot and the kid gets fouled on the crossover and then releases for the shot. Do I count it?

If the player gets fouled on the crossover, it's during the "dribble", isn't it? Don't try to overthink this call. The try starts when the dribble ends.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by refTN
So what if I determine that the foot and arm movements of a crossover dribble are in fact the movements that lead to a shot and the kid gets fouled on the crossover and then releases for the shot. Do I count it?

Dribbling movements are not shooting movements, even if they come right before shooting movements.

[refTN]

what about the jump stop foul I explained?

[mick]

Originally posted by refTN
what about the jump stop foul I explained?

I agree with a non-shooting foul if the kid is landing. The shooting motion/movements don't start there.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN
what about the jump stop foul I explained?

I don't have a clue what "traveling" is in the NBA. I also can't figure it out just by watching a game, mainly because "who" and "when" seems to apply to that call also in the NBA.

In your example, under NCAA and FED rules, you're ending your dribble or finishing catching a pass during that jump stop. You're not in the act of shooting during a jump stop, so any foul committed during that time is naturally a non-shooting foul. Once the jump stop stop ends with both feet on the floor, then any further shooting move to the basket is the start of the "try". This type of try usually coincides with going off both feet to shoot. In that case, after a jump stop, when you go up neither foot can then come back down before the ball leaves your hand on the shot, or it's traveling. There's no such concept of step with one foot and then off the pivot foot involved.

[tomegun]

Good conversation. As pointed out by a few others, the steps really don't matter. What matters is the beginning of the shooting motion.
refTN, you are getting hung up on different rule sets when all the rules, at least the ones we use in the USA, are all the same. If you don't want to take anyone's word on this site, send an email to Joe Forte and ask him.
Maybe someone looks at this thread and begins to call this play correctly. That is what this should all be about.

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You believe wrong under both high school and NCAA rules.

Bob Jenkins gave the simplest and best answer above as to how the play is supposed to be called under NFHS and NCAA rules. He said "Gathering the ball in both hands is the start of the habitual throwing motion". That's what you look for, that's the way it's supposed to be called (even in the ...wait for it...SEC ), and that's the way that this play has been taught since I've been around.

Forget about "steps" by the shooter unless he travels. Look for the shooter grabbing the ball with both hands. That starts a "try" under all rulesets.

We have had this discussion before. Bob's guidleine is as good as it gets. When a kid goes in for a layup and has picked up the ball, the kid has two choices Shoot or Pass. If they did not pass they were probably shooting.

You will never find an "upward motion" in the book. Continuous motion as mentioned is the habitual motion as part of a try or shot (or something close) What is the habitual motion? Picking up the ball on the drive.

The other aprt of the pet peeve of mine is "on the floor".. what does that mean? The foul was before the shot or it was not. Players can be on the floor and still shott..

[justacoach]

Originally posted by Kelvin green

We have had this discussion before. Bob's guidleine is as good as it gets. When a kid goes in for a layup and has picked up the ball, the kid has two choices Shoot or Pass. If they did not pass they were probably shooting.

You will never find an "upward motion" in the book. Continuous motion as mentioned is the habitual motion as part of a try or shot (or something close) What is the habitual motion? Picking up the ball on the drive.

The other aprt of the pet peeve of mine is "on the floor".. what does that mean? The foul was before the shot or it was not. Players can be on the floor and still shott..

Kelvin:
Ditto for being peeved about 'on the floor'.

My consistent response to officials who blow this call is
"Please don't tell me where but WHEN in the shooting motion the foul occurred"
Normally elicits a puzzled look.
Most officials who can tell the difference use the term "NO SHOT". Those who are verbalizing OTF are probably basing the award of shots on position rather than correctly using the definitions of continuous motion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by justacoach

Kelvin:
Ditto for being peeved about 'on the floor'.

My consistent response to officials who blow this call is
"Please don't tell me where but WHEN in the shooting motion the foul occurred"
Normally elicits a puzzled look.
Most officials who can tell the difference use the term "NO SHOT". Those who are verbalizing OTF are probably basing the award of shots on position rather than correctly using the definitions of continuous motion.

I've used "no shot" since my first year because I had an excellent trainer in my first officiating class. He went on to be executive director for IAABO. No matter what that group's interps are he was a fantasic clinician.
tomegun,
You might be interested to know that Vegas is currently teaching that the act of shooting starts when the player brings the ball up to his chest/chin. It's true!
It caused many problems for us last year when a certain very good official said that at the coaches clinic prior to last season, and then a few of us went out and called it by the book.

[tomegun]

Nevada, after speaking to a couple of the guys this week, I'm not surprised by anything they are doing in Vegas. I wish them the best but there seem to be some things going wrong in Sin City!