Score the basket or on the floor?

[tomegun]

As the dribbler (A1) is going to the basket and begins his steps for a layup the ball comes into both hands. With the ball in both hands, A1 is fouled and takes his/her step(s) to complete the layup.

Is this basket good or is the foul on the floor?

What is the difference with continuation between NFHS, NCAA and the NBA?

This is a weakness among officials that I've heard several times this year during meetings (not my words, although I agree).

Speaking of step(s) to the basket, which foot is the pivot foot during a regular right-handed layup?

I have my own thoughts about this, I would like to see what others think.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by tomegun
As the dribbler (A1) is going to the basket and begins his steps for a layup the ball comes into both hands. With the ball in both hands, A1 is fouled and takes his/her step(s) to complete the layup.

Is this basket good or is the foul on the floor?

COunt the basket. Gathering the ball in both hands is the start of the habitual throwing motion.

What is the difference with continuation between NFHS, NCAA and the NBA?

NFHS and NCAA are the same. I've read (here) that the NBA is essentially the same.

Speaking of step(s) to the basket, which foot is the pivot foot during a regular right-handed layup?

The left foot.

[Nu1]

I'd say count the basket, if you determine the shooting motion has started. You can have two hands on the ball when starting the shooting motion for a jump shot. If fouled during a jump shot...with two hands on the ball...you would count the basket. I look at it the same for a lay up. Of course you can also have two hands on the ball and be holding or passing it. So, it depends on whether or not you deemed the shooting motion began.

For a right handed lay up isn't the right foot the pivot? I'm trying to visualize this...and don't you pick up the ball with the right foot on the floor...step and put your left down...lift your right / pivot foot...and finish the lay up?

[JCrow]

Lay-ups

I Coach my kids this way and try to explain the Traveling Rule for a layup on the right side as such:

1. You almost always jump from your left foot to shoot a right-handed layup from the right side.

2. You want to pick up your dribble (both hands touch ball) with your right leg in the lead. If you pick up your dribble with both feet on the floor, your pivot foot will be your right foot as soon as you pick up your trailing foot (the left).

3. If you pick up your dribble with only the lead right foot touching the floor, it is your pivot foot as soon as the trailing left foot moves into the lead and touches. (I get the right foot as the pivot foot in both cases?)

4. In either case, you pick up yout right (pivot) foot as you you jump off your left foot and pass or shoot before returning to the floor.


The jumping off one foot, landing on two and jumping again is a great move to teach young kids as it gives them the ability to snake left or right when jumping off the two feet.

If Coach K. is looking for a good, high-paid Assistant.....I can be had.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Nu1
motion began.

For a right handed lay up isn't the right foot the pivot? I'm trying to visualize this...and don't you pick up the ball with the right foot on the floor...step and put your left down...lift your right / pivot foot...and finish the lay up?

Yes -- sorry. I meant the "other left foot". No wonder I can't dance.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nu1
For a right handed lay up isn't the right foot the pivot?

Probably depends on the player and on when the ball is gathered up, doesn't it?

[tomegun]

The right foot is the pivot. You scared me for a minute Bob.

The NBA rule on continuation is the same. How many times have we heard comments when we have a continuation play and people think the NBA rule is different?

Also, if we agree (which we do) the this play should be a shooting foul, how many times do we see an official yelling, "on the floor, on the floor?" There are too many times a shooting foul should be called and it isn't. I'm guilty of this as well and need to make sure I see the play for what it really is.

Rainmaker, my question was based on a right-handed layup that would be considered "normal."

[mick]

Originally posted by tomegun
As the dribbler (A1) is going to the basket and begins his steps for a layup the ball comes into both hands. With the ball in both hands, A1 is fouled and takes his/her step(s) to complete the layup.

Is this basket good or is the foul on the floor?

tomegun,
I have continuation on the last step-and-a-half. ...Dribbling, or on a post move.
Way too many times, I have seen the shot waved off.
And way, way too many times I have seen an official point at the floor.
mick

[refTN]

I would have to see this play for sure. The word continuation is not in the nfhs rule book, but continous shooting motion is. In high school and college I would have to see this play but the kid would have to be moving in an upward motion before I would give him the basket.

The NBA is the only group to have both the word continuation and continous shooting motion in their books as well as definitions for both. Continuation refers to gathering the ball, and continuous shooting motion is defined just like it is in the nfhs and ncaa.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by refTN
I would have to see this play for sure. The word continuation is not in the nfhs rule book, but continous shooting motion is. In high school and college I would have to see this play but the kid would have to be moving in an upward motion before I would give him the basket.

The NBA is the only group to have both the word continuation and continous shooting motion in their books as well as definitions for both. Continuation refers to gathering the ball, and continuous shooting motion is defined just like it is in the nfhs and ncaa.

OK, should I or shouldn't I? What the heck, I can't resist.

refTN, this is part of your problem. You need to see more plays instead of getting hung up on the words continuous and continuation! One of the most outspoken officials about this whole discussion is Joe Forte, who you will probably hear speak at a camp in the future for.........wait.........the SEC! I'm not trying to belittle you but I tried to describe what I'm talking about in such a way to take any doubt about what the shooter's (hint: he was a shooter) intentions were. Also, if the ball is in his hands and he is taking his/her step(s) toward the basket, what else are they going to do? We have had years of an error by ommission; the player was on the floor. Now, instructors and higher-level officials are saying there isn't a difference in the rules and if we are going to make an error, make an error of commission; give the shooter free-throws or a free-throw. The beginning of the shooting motion is the key here.

I just read your post again and noticed something else. What if the defender was playing D in such a way where the motion wasn't up but was delayed until the offensive play was in the air and forced to scoop the ball to the hoop under-handed? Are you going to NOT call it a shooting foul because the upward motion didn't happen?

I don't have my NBA rule book at work, but how does it say continuation refers to gathering the ball? I'm not saying it doesn't, I just would like to know the wording.

[SavaahnTy]

ALWAYS a shooting foul.

One to think on though...............

Your partner or partners during the game are CONSISTANTLY calling all same/similar situations " ON THE FLOOR!!".

Do you adjust, or make them adjust?

PRE-GAME....ahh, it works wonders

I would love to hear thoughts from others, though.

Savaahn Ty
" just a student of the game, always looking to improve"

[SeanFitzRef]

ST,

Pre-game it right, and you have no problems, but.....

If I have to try to make that adjustment, I'm going to TRY to get my partner(s) on the same page as me, and call the play all the way through. To me a shooting motion is the same as a shot, but on this whistle you have to watch the result of the play. I have seen a lot of kids (mostly boys) go up in the shooting motion, then pass as they are fouled in the air. That extra split-second can save a lot of hassles later.

[refTN]

Here is what the NBA officials manual says on continuation:

Occurs when a player is clearly driving to the basket and after gathering the ball,[or ending the dribble] is fouled while attempting to complete this movement, he is to be rewarded with two shots if there is a miss of his shot.

If he can continue his move while being fouled after the gather and score a goal in the process, the goal is scored and a one additional free throw shot attempt is awarded to him.

In the NBA a player can be fouled as he has gathered the ball on a jump stop and while in the air coming down for the jump stop get fouled and then finish to the hoop. I don't think anybody in HS and college would let them do that.


This is what I mean by the upward shooting motion. If this kid in HS gets fouled after he has gathered the ball and is still on his right foot then proceeds to step with the left and finish the hoop, I believe by high school rule you cannot award this basket.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by refTN


This is what I mean by the upward shooting motion. If this kid in HS gets fouled after he has gathered the ball and is still on his right foot then proceeds to step with the left and finish the hoop, I believe by high school rule you cannot award this basket.

You'd be incorrect. The kid has started the foot and arm movements that lead to the shot.

[refTN]

So what if I determine that the foot and arm movements of a crossover dribble are in fact the movements that lead to a shot and the kid gets fouled on the crossover and then releases for the shot. Do I count it?