Rule Book Interpertation

[hungt]

I got this excerpt from the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rule book..
"A.R. 35. A1 attempts a try at Team A’s basket after having completed the dribble. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or the flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court. Is this traveling? RULING: When A1 recovered his or her own try, A1 could either dribble, pass or try again. There is no team control by either team when a try is in flight. However, when the shot clock expires and a try by A1 or a teammate has not struck the ring or the flange, it shall be a violation of the shot-clock rule."

Now did the ruling answer the traveling question?
To me, this is traveling, correct?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by hungt
I got this excerpt from the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rule book..
"A.R. 35. A1 attempts a try at Team A’s basket after having completed the dribble. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or the flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court. Is this traveling? RULING: When A1 recovered his or her own try, A1 could either dribble, pass or try again. There is no team control by either team when a try is in flight. However, when the shot clock expires and a try by A1 or a teammate has not struck the ring or the flange, it shall be a violation of the shot-clock rule."

Now did the ruling answer the traveling question?
To me, this is traveling, correct?

No, it is NOT traveling. How could it possibly be traveling if A1 was allowed to dribble, pass or try again after getting the missed try?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by hungt
I got this excerpt from the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rule book..
"A.R. 35. A1 attempts a try at Team A’s basket after having completed the dribble. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or the flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court. Is this traveling? RULING: When A1 recovered his or her own try, A1 could either dribble, pass or try again. There is no team control by either team when a try is in flight. However, when the shot clock expires and a try by A1 or a teammate has not struck the ring or the flange, it shall be a violation of the shot-clock rule."

Now did the ruling answer the traveling question?
To me, this is traveling, correct?

Yes, to you it is traveling, but you're not correct.

I believe this is traveling under NBA rules, which you can access on the web somewhere. Under NCAA rules & even HS rules however this is a legal play *unless* A1 has a brain cramp & tries to put the ball into the wrong basket.

[hungt]

I read the excerpt as..if you shot an "air ball", you can catch your own shoot?

[lukealex]

Originally posted by hungt
I read the excerpt as..if you shot an "air ball", you can catch your own shoot?

Yes, you can catch your own air ball, plain and simple. But not in the NBA.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by hungt
I read the excerpt as..if you shot an "air ball", you can catch your own shoot?

Better said that you can catch your own shot always.

[lukealex]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Better said that you can catch your own shot always.

Good point since you can't pass to yourself, unless you throw it off the backboard, but that is a whole different topic (almost).

[Hartsy]

Originally posted by hungt
I got this excerpt from the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rule book..
"A.R. 35. A1 attempts a try at Team A’s basket after having completed the dribble. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or the flange or any other player.

Attempts a try, or a try?

If you judge it to be a shot, it is not traveling. If it was almost a shot (attempts a try) then it is a pass to ones self and is traveling.

I don't like the wording "attempts a try". It's either a try or it isn't. I do think this implies an "airball" though.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by hungt
I got this excerpt from the 2005 NCAA Basketball Rule book..
"A.R. 35. A1 attempts a try at Team A’s basket after having completed the dribble. The try does not touch the backboard, the ring or the flange or any other player. A1 runs and catches the ball before it strikes the playing court. Is this traveling? RULING: When A1 recovered his or her own try, A1 could either dribble, pass or try again. There is no team control by either team when a try is in flight. However, when the shot clock expires and a try by A1 or a teammate has not struck the ring or the flange, it shall be a violation of the shot-clock rule."

Now did the ruling answer the traveling question?
To me, this is traveling, correct?

The NFHS casebook play 4.43 Situation B says almost exactly the same thing as this NCAA AR, but it starts its ruling with a simple "No." and then continues with an explanation that is very similar to the NCAA AR. Perhaps that would clarify it for you.

Originally posted by Hartsy
I don't like the wording "attempts a try". It's either a try or it isn't. I do think this implies an "airball" though.

You are making to much out of the diction, Yoda. "Do or do not. There is no try." In this context, "attempts" means "executes." In fact, had the committee written "tries a try" it would mean exactly the same thing, but would be even more ungainly in my opinion.

Originally posted by lukealex
Good point since you can't pass to yourself, unless you throw it off the backboard, but that is a whole different topic (almost).

Again, only true in the NBA. Under NFHS rules there is no such thing as a self pass. It is either a legal dribble or an illegal dribble, depending upon whether or not the ball bounces on the floor. Take a look at the following:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

Now read 4.15.4 Situation D part(a) and contrast it to the above ruling.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jun 29th, 2005 at 07:36 AM]

[Hartsy]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

You are making to much out of the diction, Yoda. "Do or do not. There is no try." In this context, "attempts" means "executes." In fact, had the committee written "tries a try" it would mean exactly the same thing, but would be even more ungainly in my opinion.

[/B]

How about simply "shoots", rather than "attempts a try" or "tries a try" or "executes a try"? IF that is what is meant, and I do think it is.

[Kelvin green]

This points out why definitions are so important-

Team Control, player control, try etc....

I was told early on in my career Rule 4 was the most importatnt. If you know rule 4 then you can get the game right. If you dont know rule 4 then we end up making up stuff (Rule 4 in NFHS)

[Dewey1]

Nevadaref

I have to disagree with you on the point of a self pass.

Originally posted by lukealex
Good point since you can't pass to yourself, unless you throw it off the backboard, but that is a whole different topic (almost).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say:

Again, only true in the NBA.

But this is also true in NCAA, which is the rules that Hung was talking about to start this post.

Rule 4, sec 66 Art 4- A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the ball of A's backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks. Ruling: The play shall be legal since the backboard is equipment located in A1's half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use.

[Nevadaref]

No, it's not true in the NCAA that "you can't pass to yourself, unless you throw it [the ball] off the backboard..."

You are misunderstanding the point and making an illogical argument.

The primary part of lukealex's statement is that you can't pass to yourself. That is ONLY true in the NBA. It is LEGAL to throw a BOUNCE pass to oneself at both the college and HS levels because it meets the definition of starting a dribble. The term self-pass doesn't even exist at the NCAA or NFHS levels.


lukealex then adds a caveat to his premise. He excepts throwing the ball off the backboard to oneself from his illegal "self pass category" because he is aware that this specific action has been deemed legal.

You took this small part of his post, thought "Hey, that's legal in the NCAA, too" quoted the rule which specifies that, and seem to think that I don't agree or am not aware of that.
In fact, this action is legal at ALL levels of basketball (NBA, NCAA, AND NFHS). No one disagreed with this, including me. Notice that neither of the plays that I quoted above have anything at all to do with throwing the ball off the backboard.

Now, please go back and take a look at his entire statement,

Originally posted by lukealex
Good point since you can't pass to yourself, unless you throw it off the backboard, but that is a whole different topic (almost).

you will now understand that this is ONLY true in the NBA where there is a specific prohibition for a self-pass. I responded to this thread when I noticed that lukealex seems to use "you can't pass to yourself" as a rule of thumb for making a decision on the legality of a play. That is terribly misleading, in fact, it is wrong, unless he is officiating in the NBA. That is what I wrote above.

Note: What most people think is a "self-pass" is really a try for goal that doesn't touch anything. That is what hungt originally inquired about. He even provided the NCAA rule which says it is a legal play. (It is also legal in NFHS, but not in the NBA.) He was just a little confused about the wording of the answer. Without the word "NO" in the ruling, he was still unclear whether or not this action was traveling.
I provided an example of an action that starts out as a pass, but becomes a dribble and is deemed legal in order to specifically demonstrate that lukealex shouldn't be thinking like that.

[drothamel]

This question comes up in this forum a lot, and the conversation almost always resembles some sort of drunken merry-go-round. I do have to hand it to Nevadaref, though, for trying to stop the madness with the Yoda reference. That is classic.

[Jimgolf]

When I officiated my first intramural game back in 1977 (with no training, of course), I called a player for a self-pass, and was met with no arguments from the players. I was later told by the evaluator that I had made the wrong call, and that since there was a try for a goal, the players action was legal.

Ever since then I have been trying to explain this rule to hundreds of pickup game and schoolyard players, to no avail. It seems that "catching you own pass" myth has a life of it's own. An urban legend of basketball.