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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 06:46pm
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This is my first post but I've really enjoyed and learned from reading now for a few weeks.

Wanted to get some opinions on the following situation I had the other night. Boys frosh, visiting coach riding us a little bit in first half, most noticeable of which was when I called a foul on his player when he wanted a held ball. His player was directly behind his opponent and reached completely around, I called the contact on the reach for the foul. Coach wanted an explanation...."I had the contact first coach"......but next trip down as I pass by I hear "Unbelievable you could miss that call down there"...I let it go.

2nd half I call a foul on visiting team and the offender slams both hands on the floor in disgust at himself or the call, I don't know which. I T'd that action. The personal plus the T gave him 5. As I'm informing the coach he calls me over and asks what he said. "I don't think he said anything,he slammed the floor with both hands in disgust". Coach: "Well, I'm getting disgusted that I can't get a call down there". Me: "About thirty seconds to go on your substitution, coach." (and I start to walk away). Coach: "What? You're not going to talk about it anymore?". Me: Shake head no, I'm now about 15 ft. away and continue to walk. Coach: "Make sure your name is in the book!" (I guess some sort of reference to a complaint to be filed or to have his AD avoid me).

Only other incident was later I granted home team a timeout, he thought they didn't have control. I was headed to explain to him but was reporting the TO to table first, so my partner beat me with the explanation. The coach says with a glance in my direction......"good explanation, that's all I wanted was an explanation." (Note that I gave him his explanation of the T on his player and he was, IMO, just complaining.....see above)

I tend to communicate with coaches as little as possible as it tends to distract me from calling the game. Should I have let him engage me in conversation when I walked away? Should I have T'd him at any point for any of his comments? I don't want to be aloof, but I'm just not real good at having running converasations while the game is on.

It's really been a pretty good year with coaches. One T all year for the bench, one for a player (noted above). But, games like the other night can make me question if my "hands-off" philosophy with coaches is always best.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 07:04pm
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If a coach is riding my partner and I the whole game I wont give him an explination. I dont know if it is just me, but I dont like when coaches question my calls.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 07:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by brandan89
If a coach is riding my partner and I the whole game I wont give him an explination. I dont know if it is just me, but I dont like when coaches question my calls.
Better get used to it, cause you won't do a game where something like this won't happen. Best advice, as long as the coach doesn't make an *** out of himself or is screaming at the top of his lungs, I don't care, I will still talk to him or explain something to him.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 07:16pm
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Maybe I'm getting tired towards the end of the season and I am older than most of the coaches I call for, but the name in the book comment would have been the last straw for me. I was asked the other night if I wanted to see the tape so I could see where I missed the call. It was a quick T. Others on this site thought it wasn't a T'able offense and I don't necessarily disagree with them. I normally take a lot from coaches and try to hear what they are saying and internally assess myself to see if they may be right; however, the name in the book comment is one of those I think is a direct comment designed to show you up. I can think of some witty things to say back in this case but I would never do that in a game. I think a simple technical and seat belt for the coach will work here.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 07:19pm
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closely_guarded

i would think most officials would agree that most officials are different. and the coaches know this. i sorta enjoy when a coach challenges me in a respectful way. i am confident of my knowledge of the rules thus dont mind being questioned. however i will not let a coach think he can use me to make a side line show. and i certainly wont let one get personnal with myself or my partner. we are a team and i expect my partner to demand respect for me as i do for him and myself. i have found that alot of times it smooths a situation to be very light hearted when communicating with a coach but will also let them know they have come close to crossing the line. i try to treat them with
respect as long as possible though.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 07:30pm
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My advise is don't look for reasons to explain calls. If you have something funky fine, but I'm not intitating ANY explanations for judgment calls.

If a coach has a question, I'll give something during a dead ball or on the fly, but I'm NOT explaining on statements, and I'm not explaining EVERY call.

A coach going to the explanation well more than a couple of times is getting the, "Time to coach your players and leave the officiating to me," warning.

The coach in your post was using all the coaching tricks, he was working you, questioning you, he even went with divide and conquer when your partner beat you to the timeout explanation.

If I'm working that game with you, I'm whacking him for the name in the book statement, so he can have both our names.

You will suffer for a hands off approach, because coaches will view it as weakness. They will see it as either arrogance or you are intimidated, and will use both against you.

If you are not good at focusing on the play and communicating with the coaches at the same time work on it. There is nothing wrong with saying, "I"ll talk to you at a more appropriate time coach."
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 08:45pm
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Blindzebra is right on with this one IMO. The name in the book comment would've been automatic for me because it's personal. To me that's bordering on a flagrant T because it's an attack on my integrity made in a threatening manner. The earlier situation where the coach harped on a call after you gave an explanation is at the edge and is worth at least a warning ("Coach that subject is closed," etc). That's where it seems things came a bit unglued, you allowed him unchecked to take potshots at you and they simply continued and got worse. Sounds like he was testing to find the line and never found it. I think veteran JV coaches will do this to younger officials because they think they can intimidate
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:00pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by closely_guarded
This is my first post but I've really enjoyed and learned from reading now for a few weeks.


I tend to communicate with coaches as little as possible as it tends to distract me from calling the game. Should I have let him engage me in conversation when I walked away? Should I have T'd him at any point for any of his comments? I don't want to be aloof, but I'm just not real good at having running converasations while the game is on.

It's really been a pretty good year with coaches. One T all year for the bench, one for a player (noted above). But, games like the other night can make me question if my "hands-off" philosophy with coaches is always best.
I mean this in a constructive way. You need to recognize the difference between when a Coach is being a jerk and when he has a reasonable question that deserves an answer. One that comes up often is block/charge. If the Coach saw it differently tell him what you saw. If it's not appropriate to communicate tell him you'll get back to him when you have a chance.

Really when you get right to it there's not much to talk about. Coach I answered your question it's time to move on.
I find that the vast majority of time that they just want to know that you're listening. That being said don't let them abuse you. If you have to take care of business you gotta do what you gotta do.

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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by closely_guarded
"Unbelievable you could miss that call down there"...I let it go.
I'd give him warning for that. Generally when the coach starts riding you he's trying to push the line to see how much you'll let him get away with. Stop him early.

Quote:

Coach: "Well, I'm getting disgusted that I can't get a call down there". Me: "About thirty seconds to go on your substitution, coach." (and I start to walk away). Coach: "What? You're not going to talk about it anymore?". Me: Shake head no, I'm now about 15 ft. away and continue to walk. Coach: "Make sure your name is in the book!" (I guess some sort of reference to a complaint to be filed or to have his AD avoid me).
If you've already given him a warning, that last comment is certainly T worthy. The fact that you were at least 15' away means that he must've said this pretty loud.

Remember the T is a foul just like any other, one that I feel is under used.

Now in no way am I trying to sound T-happy (I worked it out and last year I gave T's to less than 5% of coaches), but a lot of situations about game management have been posted on this board lately, and in my opinion a T would have made a practicle solution.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:25pm
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I've had (knock wood) a good year with coach's. It is amazing their view's from the bench. Balls not dropping, players not responding, turnovers flaring ... in short the great game of basketball.

There are two factors on the floor they try to gain influence on 1) the opponent and 20 the referee's and their calls. Much of it is venting, a lot is frustration, frequently it is theatrics, commonly it is strategy.

It's part of the game.

Coach's are expected to win with their team. Referee's are expected to be rules enforcers. You kno wthe addage about half empty - half full. Some coach's blame referee's for everything, others are not programmed for blame shifting.

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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref Daddy

Referee's are expected to be rules enforcers.
And if you look under rule 10, you'll find the coach's rule, another rule that we need to enforce.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:35pm
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SECTION 5 COACHES' RULE
ART. 1 . . . The head coach must remain seated on the bench at all times while the clock is running or is stopped except to:

a. Rise and stand in front of his/her seat to request a time-out or to signal his/her players to request a time-out.
b. Confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out (or one 30-second time-out if that is the only type of time-out remaining) for a correctable error as in 2-10, to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.
c. Replace or remove a disqualified/injured player, or player directed to leave the game, within 30 seconds when a substitute is available, while within the confines of his/her bench.

PENALTY: (Art. 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. The foul is charged directly to the head coach. (Art. 1b, c) If the error is not correctable under 2-10, or if the mistake as in 5-8-4 cannot be prevented or rectified, a 60-second time-out is charged (or one 30-second, if that is the only type remaining).

ART. 2 . . . The head coach and assistant coach(es) must remain seated on the bench at all times while the clock is running or is stopped except to:

a. Confer with bench personnel and players within the confines of the bench area during a charged time-out or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.
b. Attend an injured player when beckoned onto the court by an official.
c. Rise in front of their seat to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a member of their team or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to their seat. (See 1-13-2)

PENALTY: (Art. 2) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged indirectly to the head coach.

ART. 3 . . . The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate after being removed from the game for disqualification.

PENALTY: (Art. 3) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. The foul is charged directly to the head coach. Penalized if discovered while being violated.

NOTE 1: When the coaching box is being utilized as in 1-13-2 Note, the first technical foul charged directly or indirectly to the head coach results in loss of coaching-box privileges and the coach shall comply with the provisions of 10-5-1 and 10-5-2 for the remainder of the game.

NOTE 2: The third technical foul or the second technical foul charged directly to the head coach or a single flagrant foul results in disqualification and ejection. Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. Failure to comply with the rules of ejection may result in the game being forfeited.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:44pm
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Re: Coach's Rule

Isn't there something there about comments made for the benifit of the officials? Or is that somewhere else in rule 10?? I don't have my book with me so I'm not exactly sure.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 10:59pm
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Re: Re: Coach's Rule

Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
Isn't there something there about comments made for the benifit of the officials? Or is that somewhere else in rule 10?? I don't have my book with me so I'm not exactly sure.
10-4 applies to the head coach as well other bench personnel, see case play 10.4.1.E, so if a coach is up and not following the restrictions in 10-5 a T is called for by rule.

If they are up outside the restrictions of 10-5 and committing any of 10-4-1 a thru f a T is certainly deserved.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2005, 11:20pm
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Game, or coach, management is definitely not an exact science. Should you have T'd him for the name in the book comment? Depends. Depends on the game situation at that point - was it "the last straw" or just a continuing dialouge that you allowed up to that point? Yes, allowed even though you might have wished he would quit and gotten to coaching.

I agree with most of the comments that the coach was either testing you, pushing your limit, having a bad day, or simply a jerk, but you (and your partner) let him get on with his playing or otherwise he wouldn't have gone that far.

One aspect to consider is that the coach seemingly did not take you seriously that you were quickly approaching your "limit" - let him know. Apparently your communicating with him wasn't working, so either T him up or walk away as you did (very difficult to argue with silence). But either way, be firm and confident.

A direct T on a coach is a powerful call - one more and it's off to the locker room. But be careful that you don't use it to retaliate, out of anger, or as a threat. If he's earned it, let him have it; but you've got to determine if it's warrented or not.

Good luck and hang in there (I wouldn't have T'd him but would certainly let my partner know that I was at the limit - next comment by him and I'd expect my partner to either T him or make absolutely certain the coach knew "ENOUGH")
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