not in the book

[BktBallRef]

Now, you own it!

[tjones1]

For some reason I was under the thought that it only counted as one if you had multiple violations at the same time. Obviously not, and yes I know it! Thanks again.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Ok, consider yourself corrected. 2-11-1 tells us that one of the duties of the scorer is to keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter. Once the team member has participated, the scorebook must reflect this. Even if that means only checking the box for the quarter in which that person played. So if they aren't in the book, they must be added to it. The scorer should have caught this when the kid first subbed into the game. What this tells me is that the scorer is not doing his job properly.

I respectfully disagree. If it is not discovered when the player is entering the game or is in the game, you can do nothing about it. This infraction can't be pulled out of the hat in the 4th quarter for someone who was not in the book and only played in the 1st quarter. The scorers job is to record who "enters" the game...not who was in the game.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
I respectfully disagree. If it is not discovered when the player is entering the game or is in the game, you can do nothing about it. This infraction can't be pulled out of the hat in the 4th quarter for someone who was not in the book and only played in the 1st quarter. The scorers job is to record who "enters" the game...not who was in the game.

You disagree based on what case play or interpretation?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

You disagree based on what case play or interpretation?

The same one that you're using! There isn't one. The requirement, in my opinion, is that a name must only be added if that individual is currently a player or the coach wishes that individual to be added to the book.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

The same one that you're using! There isn't one. The requirement, in my opinion, is that a name must only be added if that individual is currently a player or the coach wishes that individual to be added to the book.

Does 10.1.2 fit? (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction? RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize (emphasis mine).

Does that cover the situation in question?

[ChiliBob]

I believe that is what some have been trying to say. Once the infraction is not called at the time of the infraction, no penalty can be assessed. Once the player enters the game and the scorer does not inform the refs, it cannot be penalized if the player later returns. When the player later returns, the player would, in theory, be in the book. If the player is not in the book and we have knowledge that the player was previously in the game, the error is on the scorebook keeper for not putting the player in the book previously. No "T". What if the player scored or fouled when previously in the game and it was not noticed then? Do we take the points off or delete the foul? No, because once the player was allowed to play, the player is a legal player. When the player returns, it is a legal player returning. Now, if another player entered the game not in the book or with the wrong number, we still have the administrative "T" we can assess. Whew!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChiliBob
I believe that is what some have been trying to say. Once the infraction is not called at the time of the infraction, no penalty can be assessed. Once the player enters the game and the scorer does not inform the refs, it cannot be penalized if the player later returns. When the player later returns, the player would, in theory, be in the book. If the player is not in the book and we have knowledge that the player was previously in the game, the error is on the scorebook keeper for not putting the player in the book previously. No "T". What if the player scored or fouled when previously in the game and it was not noticed then? Do we take the points off or delete the foul? No, because once the player was allowed to play, the player is a legal player. When the player returns, it is a legal player returning. Now, if another player entered the game not in the book or with the wrong number, we still have the administrative "T" we can assess. Whew!

Sorry, but this isn't even close to right. Yes, he is a legal player once the ball becomes live. No, we don't take the points away or delete the fouls. We simply PUT HIM IN THE BOOK. There is no such thing as being in the book in theory. You either are or you aren't.
Every team member who plays must be in the book. That is the official, written record of the game. Initially missing it is no excuse for not getting it right later.

While I understand how a scorer could overlook an entering substitute not being in the book, once that kid scores or fouls I don't see any way that it could be missed.

If the kid plays and then leaves without scoring or fouling, I can understand a scorer totally missing it, but when it is pointed out to the referee, that kid's name MUST be added to the scorebook and that is a technical foul AT THAT POINT in the game.

Camron, I love your respectful disagreement , but you just can't get around the fact that since this kid played he MUST be added to the scorebook whether the coach wants it or not, and 10-1-2 tells us that this is a team technical foul.
In short, no case book play is needed, I have it covered in the rules book.

Chuck,
Your play simply says what Tony and I have stated. If the scorebook IS changed that is the time the penalty must be assessed. If the T is not called at that time, it cannot be charged for that infraction later. (Another infraction of the same type later could be penalized though.)
10.1.2 does not cover what to do, if the omission is discovered later and no prior change has been made. It is this case that Tony and I are stating necessitates a scorebook change and a T at that time.

Where's Mr. Dexter? He keeps an NCAA scorebook, I'm certain that he can support this.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 6th, 2005 at 04:55 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
since this kid played he MUST be added to the scorebook whether the coach wants it or not, and 10-1-2 tells us that this is a team technical foul.

But if he didn't foul or score and no recorded his entry, how do you know he was in the game? If he's sitting on the bench, he doesn't have to be in the book. If he re-enters, then we put him in the book and assess the T. I don't see how rule compels me otherwise. JMO.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The same one that you're using! There isn't one. The requirement, in my opinion, is that a name must only be added if that individual is currently a player or the coach wishes that individual to be added to the book.

No, I'm afraid that you aren't.

The rule that I'm referencing states that the scorer is required to "Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game." The rule does not include, "If the sub is not in the book, the infraction is ignored if he has left the game before the officials are notified. There's no case play or interpretation that says that.

If a player plays, he MUST be in the book. If he's not in the book, he MUST be added. This philosophy, and that's all that it is, that the T isn't assessed if the player is taken out before the official is notified has no basis whatsoever.

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Does 10.1.2 fit? (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction? RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize (emphasis mine).

Does that cover the situation in question?

No, it doesn't.

What the case play is saying is that if the scorer enters the player into the book and DOES NOT inform the officials, once the ball is live, it's too late to penalize.

It has nothing to do with not entering the player until after he leaves the game. If he's in the game or BEEN IN the game, he MUST be entered into the book.

Originally posted by ChuckElias

But if he didn't foul or score and no recorded his entry, how do you know he was in the game? If he's sitting on the bench, he doesn't have to be in the book. If he re-enters, then we put him in the book and assess the T. I don't see how rule compels me otherwise. JMO.

The scorer is part of the officiating crew. If the scorer states that the player has been in the game and is not in the book, then a T is assessed and the name is entered. It makes no difference that the scorer didn't advise you while the player was in the game.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 6th, 2005 at 09:51 AM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

The scorer is part of the officiating crew. If the scorer states that the player has been in the game and is not in the book, then a T is assessed and the name is entered. It makes no difference that the scorer didn't advise you while the player was in the game.

Don't look now, but Tony and I are arguing on the same side of an issue! Are you scared yet T?

[BktBallRef]

Yeah, I noticed that.

And no, I ain't skeered. We're not always on opposite sides. It just usually happens when you're wrong.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

10-1-2
After the time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

...no more technical fouls can be assessed to that team for the remainder of the game.

So all the coach has to do is change a starter in the book, and then you can't T him up for the rest of the night? Not a bad deal!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Where's Mr. Dexter? He keeps an NCAA scorebook, I'm certain that he can support this.

Mr. Dexter makes sure everyone is in the scorebook. (It's a lot easier at the D-I level where you have an entire athletics communications/sports information department telling you the players on the team.)

I'm agreeing with BktBallRef and Nevada here - take a look at 3.2.2 C:

Situation: Team A, No. 14, reports and is beckoned onto the court and the ball is put in play with a throw-in. The scorer beckons the referee at the first dead ball and reports that there is no No. 14 listed in the scorebook.
Ruling: Number 14 became a player when the ball became live, however, since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to team A.

The technical foul (10-1-2 b and c) is for changing the scorebook, and "penalized when they occur" refers to the occurance of changing the scorebook - it does not refer to when the scorebook should have been changed.

If the scorekeeper changes the book, but doesn't tell you, that's when the time limit comes into effect. If the scorekeeper doesn't change the book, but has to change it later (because of points scored, a foul committed, or finally pulling his head out of his . . .), you still assess the technical foul for changing the book.

Where I do disagree is with giving a T in the fourth quarter for a player who supposedly played in the first quarter, but wasn't added to the book. While the rules certainly support the interpretation of adding the player and assessing a T, I want some evidence that the kid actually played before doing such a thing.